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  • I noticed wikia deleting a few ToS Images on Villains Wiki (which I understand, I've not been very active and the wiki really does need to step up on image policies (amongst other things).

    However this page --> http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/The_Mother had its image removed stating it is against the ToS.


    Now I can see why this may be so but the same image is on the official Dragon Age article --> http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/The_Mother.


    That just confused me slightly as I went through some pages to remove the links to deleted images.

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    • We've got an enormous number of images to review, so the likelyhood is that if you find something like that, it simply means that we haven't got to that image yet. There's also the chance of false positives, we're pretty new in this process, and may make mistakes - I've been looking for those (which is why I restored another image on your wiki)

      In this case, I agree with the reviewer, so I've gone ahead and deleted the dragonage image too.

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    • alright - that's fine.. I can see why.. just thought I'd check: I'll remove the link to the deleted image then.

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    • The image for Dragon Age Wiki is an official image from the game. The game itself is rated 18+ and is rated for mature audience. The image does not meet our criteria for an obscene image as it is something the players would encounter in the game.

      The administrators at Dragon Age Wiki take our responsibility to keeping the wiki in line with the official content of the game very seriously and we believe the correct way to respond to this is to use the {{delete}} template so the image in question can be debated by the community.

      We will reinstate the image in question. Please contact me, or any of the administrators if you have questions about this.

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    • I have left you a message on the Dragon Age wiki, but I will continue the discussion here.

      I stand by Tierrie's actions for restoring the image and reverting your edit on the article. I am baffled that the image was removed in the first place, as it is in no way pornographic. This is how the NPC was designed; is it not the wiki's goal to show how it actually looks like? I believe the removal was hasty, and it should have been discussed with the community.

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    • I understand that the game is 18+, but Wikia isn't. The image shows bared breasts, and so is outside the area we consider acceptable. I've asked another member of staff for a second opinion, and she agrees that it's not suitable for Wikia.

      I'd suggest choosing another image of the character, for example this one

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    • Sannse, I understand that the image in question might have bared chests and breasts - but breasts in itself are not offensive. In this context, they are on a naked monster, as are most of the other monsters.

      Traditionally, mermaids, sirens, harpies are also depicted in the nude as are many other fictional beasts. In such a fantastic context, the depiction of the Broodmother are quite in line with the rest of the mythical beasts. In fact, the image is not intended to titillate the viewer and it is hard to see how it might do that.

      I will be glad to open this topic up for discussion among our community to see if they consider this offensive. You are welcome to voice your point of view in such a forum and I will be glad to take replace the image with the one you suggested if our community agrees with your point of view and finds the image offensive.

      As a whole, the editors and administrators of Dragon Age Wiki are much more concerned with the edits to our wiki by Wikia. We feel that your deletion continues a habit of unilateral changes to our wiki without our prior consent or notification. We prefer to keep our content in line with our community expectations.

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    • "I understand that game is 18+, but Wikia isn't."

      Then why allow wikis based on 18+ material at all, if only to censor them and make blanket changes which users have not been consulted about? I appreciate why the image was removed Sannse, but I see no valid reason (aside from bureaucracy) to delete it when no users have complained or have been offended .

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    • How far does this go exactly? Are gratinous and otherwise visceral imagery going to be cencored as well? 18+ material is a wide scope, and I don't think we should start limiting the kind of information a wiki can display if it is being done properly and sensibly.

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    • Well, in Assasin's creed wiki, there is this:

      http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/File:Three_Graces.jpg

      It's not the same kind of art of course, but I can see three nude girls there. Go on, delete it.

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    • Just want to add my two cents here:

      Personally, I believe that censoring tasteful nude art is wrong, but that really isn't the issue with this image. The image depicts a corrupted woman, who is being shown in full nudity to allow the gamer (or viewer) to fully grasp how monstrous the process was. And I believe that, in order to preserve the spirit of the NPC, and the game itself, the image must as is. To change it would be a disservice to Dragon Age fans and the creators of the series.

      Further, I believe that making such blanket deletions will present quite a problem for wikia, because I could link five different images from five different wikis right now that would violate this very rule. The simple fact of the matter is that if you remove this picture, right now, then you would be almost required to go on a witch-hunt of sorts for all of these images that, apparently, are offensive to people's sensibilities. Treating the DA wiki as an example in this manner is simply unjust, and should either be rectified by dropping the issue entirely, or performing said holy-censor-crusade.

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    • Tierrie: Breasts in themselves are not offensive, however they are beyond the limits for images that we are OK with on Wikia. Our Terms of Use are something that you agree to in editing on Wikia, and are not something that a community can decide not to follow. The reply would be the same if a community decided to not use the Creative Commons license, or decided to allow people to share passwords on the wiki. Local decisions apply in most content decisions, but not where the content is outside our Terms of Use.

      King Cousland: I believe it is possible to write about 18+ topics in a non-explicit way. I'm happy to help advise on that if you need it.

      Removing problem images is not a new thing, the change is that we are being more proactive about it now, rather than waiting for complaints or just removing images we happened to notice. We didn't have complaints about this specific image before the review process started, but we have had complaints about content on Wikia as a whole.

      The Milkman: We're trying to find the right balance here. As well as images of explicit sex and nudity, we are deleting very extreme images of gore and violence. Most game and movie images do not fall in to this group. I think that so far, the only non-real images I've seen that went too far were a couple of very bad ones from the Saw movies. Most gore images deleted have been real photos of the most extreme type.

      Barba.mimos: As you say, it's not the same sort of art. I actually had exactly the same point from a wiki showing hentai last week. But there is culturally a difference between classical nudes in art, and game imagery or other nudity. I certainly don't claim it's logical, but it's a part of the cultural norms that we need to consider.

      Rathian Warrior: What about the version I uploaded above? This shows the character, but in a framing that doesn't show the breasts. I think that the vast majority of cases it's possible to find alternatives like that which will stay within the ToU but not diminish the article.

      As I mentioned above to the original question, this is a new process of proactive monitoring. So it's likely that those 5 images you mention will be deleted some time over the coming weeks. This wasn't picking out Dragon Age as an example, it was just that this images was pointed out to us (because another wiki had the same image deleted). If it hadn't been pointed out, then it would have been deleted when we reached that image naturally.

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    • Sannse, I am glad we are clear on what we are disagreeing on.

      You are stating that the image does not follow the Terms of Use under the following condition: Post or transmit any content that is obscene, pornographic, abusive, offensive, profane, or otherwise violates any law or right of any third party, or content that contains homophobia, ethnic slurs, religious intolerance, or encourages criminal conduct;

      As a community, we do not find that the content obscene, pornographic, offensive or any of the other following conditions. As part of our cultural norm, as gamers, we are very accustomed to seeing fantastic monsters. Would we cover the Mona Lisa with a burka because her face offends certain sensibilities? No. Similarly, we should not censor images on the Dragon Age Wiki because monsters like the Broodmother is part of our gaming culture.

      The examples you stated "deciding as a community not to follow the creative commons" is an absurd example. We disagree with where the blurry line in the sand is, and you are equating our society defined values with an absolute. You will find no disagreement here when it comes to where the line is drawn with regards to the creative commons.

      We were happy with Wikia's previous stance towards letting each community self moderate. This change is unexpected and not welcomed. I would ask that Wikia reconsiders their position as the moral arbiter of the gaming wikis.

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    • Adding on to Tierrie's point, it is difficult to clearly define what is and is not "obscene". It is thus up to individual communities to come to this consensus. It is clear a strong majority of the users on that particular wiki (Dragon Age Wiki) do not believe it to be obscene. What one group considers grotesque, another may deem perfectly exceptable. You can see the unaminous discussion here.

      I implore the staff to help us help ourselves. We simply require the tools to compile information.

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    • To add to both Tierrie and the Milkman's points, I would say that since there have been no complaints (to my knowledge) regarding the image, it is difficult to see how the image could be construed as obscene or offensive (I need not go into it being classed as pornographic, as to suggest somebody may see that image as pornography is frankly absurd). Users at the DA wiki have thus far voted unanimously that the image does not viloate the ToU, and, in conjunction with what Tierrie wrote, I am disheartened by Wikia's decision to moderate wikis themselves, instead of leaving it to wiki users. Speaking personally, I view this as a censorship crusade which restricts users' ability to fulfill the purpose of a wiki.

      In regard to the suggested replacement, I (and I am sure many others) would be unhappy with a headshot as it could simply be seen as a human wearing heavy makeup with some unnatural qualities such as red eyes (such qualities - as I am sure you are aware - are something of a benaility in fantasy like Dragon Age). To understand the true monstrousness of such creatures, the current image is needed.

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    • I would like to reiterate Tierrie's point, but in a different sort of manner. First and foremost, I would like to disagree with your assertion that it is possible to portray 18+ content in an unexplicit manner. This is because, by simple virtue of its rating, there must be something within said content that would be deemed unsafe for viewing for a more general audience. That is why the game, movie, etc. is rated what it is. Asking us to try and make our wiki's content more acceptable is simple absurd because the game that the wiki is based on is not acceptable for everyone. We as wiki editors do a service to both ourselves, our viewers, and the game creators by accurately describing, showing, and expressing the same points, views, ideas, and concepts that we find in the actual game. Asking us to change our ways because they aren't acceptable is thus asking us to do a disservice to the informative website we have thus-far created.

      Frankly, I fail to see how the image could possibly be offensive to the point of it requiring a deletion. If someone has plaed Dragon Age, then they have already been exposed to the image and would either know to avoid that particular page, or simply be aware of its contents. If someone hasn't played the game, then why would they be on our Wiki at all? The pages on both Dragon Age games on our wiki clearly state that the game is rated M for Mature, which would most likely make any curious non-player aware that they are in a place that contains mature themes and content. If they persist, and happen to stumble upon the Mother, or another offensive image, then we have the moral high ground of saying that they were duly warned.

      In all honesty, I see no reason why our wiki should care about the opinions of outside viewers at all. We do not maintain the wiki for them and their viewing. The wiki was created as a place for DA players to compile their knowledge about the lore of the games, books, comics, etc. Non-players who are curious about the games are certainly welcome, of course, but we do not force people who may be offended by what we post and upload to come to our wiki and view our content. As we have shown you already, the DA wiki has united in denouncing your deletion and subsequent reasoning as admittedly well-mannered, but high-handed and ultimately ill-conceived. No one in our community finds the content offensive, and yet we must bow to the odd person, who may or may not exist, that stumbles onto our site of their own volition and finds what we post obscene?

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    • Unfortunately, there's no way we could say that each community can decide what is within the Terms of Use. Although they can certainly decide what's right for their topic as long as they aren't breaking the ToU. I think a good example of this is that cursing is not against the Terms of Use, but may be against individual wiki policies. We won't insist that you keep language clean, or that you allow people to curse on your wiki. Either is a local decision.

      But over the last couple of weeks we've come across some wikis with images that are way beyond anything that Dragon Age would allow. We have to have a line that is a global "maximum" and is a fair and consistent limit that works for Wikia as a whole. Then, if individual wikis want to vary their local rules inside that line, that's up to them. This specific image may have not had complaints, but it was complaints about images on Wikia that hadn't been moderated by their communities that started this clean-up drive.

      That said, this is a new process, and we're willing to look again at whether we are setting that line in the right place. I've been talking to people here over the last couple of days, and will be doing that in more detail soon -- the Mother image will be one of the examples I'll use to help us work on this. In the meantime, the image won't be deleted by the reviewers. Inferno Pendragon, if you replace it on Villains, we won't delete it there for now either (if it goes, please let me know - but it shouldn't!)

      I appreciate you all talking this though, and think that we can work out the right levels of moderation for Wikia as a whole.

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    • Thank you for listening. We are all here because we have a passion for something, and Wikia let's us enjoy those further by allowing us to compile, share, and ascertain information. We simply wish to be complete in doing so, we all agree that the ToC are important.

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    • I'm glad we were able to get the guidelines reviewed; and the willingness to review the current guidelines does make sense.

      However, I am concerned about the lack of gamer representation on your team. I've noticed that the community team consists primarily of enthusiasts and hobbyists. Of the team, only Trella could be said to represent the English speaking gaming community.

      Modern games such as Modern Warfare, The Witcher, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed all some adult content - either in the form of combat, romance, or story line. As gamers, we play these games knowing that they are not the brightly lit, sunshine games of yesterday. We expect the games and wikis to be realistic, dirty and representative of the fantasy world they are in.

      As such, it makes sense for Wikia to engage the gaming community in setting up this "global" maximum by asking for feedback from the gaming community.

      Plus, in your post you pointed out that "it was complaints about images on Wikia that hadn't been moderated by their communities that started this clean-up drive.". And that sounds reasonable that if a Wiki is not moderated, then there is no local responsibility for the content and it falls upon Wikia to find a local moderator, to moderate that wiki, or to remove that Wiki.

      In addition, I'd like to propose that Wikia let well moderated wikis set their standards by the games which they represent instead of using a "line in the sand" to compare wikis such as My Little Pony to those such as Dragon Age.

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    • We at the DA wiki appreciate your willingness to continue this dialogue with us, in an effort to find a suitable compromise that will leave everyone happy with this situation. I hope I was not to forward in my assertions, but as Milkman said, we are all passionate about Dragon Age and the wiki community.

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    • Tierrie: the problems weren't all images on unmoderated wikis. For example, a wiki about a hentai lolicon comic might be well maintained, and the local admins may feel all their images appropriate for their wiki, but it might actually be way outside the ToU. We've also had wikis created on many other explicit topics (gaming and non-gaming) over the years. They are well intentioned, and there's nothing to say they can't work as wikis... they just aren't suitable for Wikia.

      That's not the case for Dragon Age of course, but it does mean that we have to set a line as a maximum, and then allow each community to choose their own line within that. I'm hopeful we can work one out that you will be OK with.

      And I'd say we as a team can represent you well :) We may not all be gamers, but we are all big lovers of wikis and Wikia. And watch the staff blog next week for an introduction to another avid gamer for the team.

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    • of course you "can" represent us well; this simply occasioned the pertinent question of whether you did. thank you for continuing the discussion and not leaving a derail-fest behind.

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    • Sansse, it has come to my attention that you have once again unilaterally deleted an image on the Dragon Age Wiki that the community has vetted as an acceptable image.

      Not only did you delete the image, you did so to the same image that we discussed last year. In that discussion we touched on the fact that this image seems obscene to you because you do not understand our gaming culture, and the imagery that comes with it.

      Once again, a year from this very same point, we're at the same crossroads. As a community, we do not feel that you speak for us, and we feel that once again, you apply your "standards" unilaterally to us.

      We have once again reinstated the image. Please contact me if you have any questions about why we did so.

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    • Oops! I forgot this message was here. It's usually best to start a new thread when the current one is so old :)

      Apologies for the deletion.  I look at a lot of images each day, and it's easy to forget that one has already been discussed (especially after so long)

      One point I would like to make: I frequently speak for the community both globally and on individual wikis.  But I also have to ensure wikis stay within the Terms of Use. There are cases like yours that are borderline, and where the ToU becomes more difficult to interpret.  I'm working to clarify that fuzzy area, which should make situations like this less likely (I was hoping to work on that last year, but various things got in the way).

      After your upload, the image will recycle into the review queue again.  This time I will be sure to approve it.

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