FANDOM


  • So, this is just my opinion, to clarify. And I'm sorry if anything here comes off as harsh/angry tone... it is not my intention to provoke anyone.

    I personally think that people's standards for Fandom are too high. And... I'm not really surprised. But Fandom has mentioned that UCP isn't perfect, and people seem to ignore that. Instead of promoting changes that you think would be beneficial, you assume that they would've "known better" and straight up leave. I don't really see how this helps Fandom change for the better, if anything, it makes it worse.

    Do you remember the days when people were mad that Fandom made message walls? Well, they were in the exact same situation as we are in now. People leaving, people complaining, etc. And now, while there are still people who prefer talk pages over message walls (I'm not saying that's bad), they aren't complaining at all. I know that the situation with UCP is much bigger than the situation about message walls, but I feel as if they are comparable in some sense.

    If I'm being completely honest, I'm not the biggest fan of the new editor, too. I preferred a lot of things in the old editor. But I'm not gonna pack my bags and leave Fandom, because I think it would be better for me to report bugs and suggest changes about UCP to Fandom themselves, so they can make it much better for everyone. I suggest that people start doing that, too.

    Edit: I edited this post to give it a less harsh/angry tone and instead a more gentle tone. I'm sorry if anything in the previous post was too harsh.

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    • All of that is true, but have you considered the possibility that within 10-12 months from now, that people change their mind about the new platform.

      Sure some of them are frustrated about the changes, but this might or might not be something that will calm down over time once the platform is in a more stabilized position in regards to the interface and the features.

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    • Perhaps your standards are low and not other people's standards are too high.

      You can't compare UCP to Message Walls... that's just imbalanced and ridiculous.

      I mean how long have you even been on FANDOM? Are you an administrator for any sizable wikis? Are you responsible for fixing any of the problems that UCP has caused? You need to have some experience and some responsibility to have credibility.

      Think of this as your favorite carmaker deciding to completely redo their cars, but the new model is buggy, unreliable, and unpredictable, but with no real manual. You're telling me you would be fine with that?

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    • Replacing the software was probably inevitable, and we are aware that Fandom is a commercial company with limited resources and have to focus on earning money.

      Yet, Fandom is a platform which lives in symbioze with their editors. The editors are there because they want to, but they are also the volunteers that Fandom relies on, so it's just natural that they are stating what is not good.

      Some changes were inevitable, others are matter of priorities (which we can have opinions about), and in addition there is a totally unexpected (for me) amount of bugs.

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    • Kortooney, one thing I’ve noticed across multiple blogs is that, each of the comments seems to indicate that users aren’t even paying attention to the entire blog, and therefore they are providing their opinions while not looking at the bigger picture of the platform change from 1.19 to 1.33

      Some of the comments come from users who are particularly unsatisfied with not having features that they liked having, while not realizing that on a technical level, Fandom couldn’t even manage and support those features since they relied heavily on customized code that couldn’t logically be fixed or maintained properly under MediaWiki 1.33. However, I’m sure that they’ll realize that they shouldn’t have been so stubborn about the change(s) and not to get overly frustrated about it.

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    • Paramount1106 wrote:
      Kortooney, one thing I’ve noticed across multiple blogs is that, each of the comments seems to indicate that users aren’t even paying attention to the entire blog, and therefore they are providing their opinions while not looking at the bigger picture of the platform change from 1.19 to 1.33

      Some of the comments come from users who are particularly unsatisfied with not having features that they liked having, while not realizing that on a technical level, Fandom couldn’t even manage and support those features since they relied heavily on customized code that couldn’t logically be fixed or maintained properly under MediaWiki 1.33. However, I’m sure that they’ll realize that they shouldn’t have been so stubborn about the change(s) and not to get overly frustrated about it.

      This is somewhat misleading... the reason customized code couldn't easily be micrated or ported to MediaWiki 1.33 is because of the longstanding neglect of updating the base MediaWiki engine which  made the task even harder and near impossible, since FANDOM didn't maintain the expertise to do the job anyway.

      You need to understand that editors have been accustomed to a certain feature set for near a decade and FANDOM demonstrated they deprioritized the comfort of existing users for their own priorities which make contributing much more difficult for those "volunteers" who are the basis for FANDOM's entire business.

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    • I was going to say things but most of what I was going to say has already been said. I will add this though. At least in my opinion, adding features users don't want and, in some cases, can disable if they really desire is far less obtrusive than removing a feature that users want and, in some cases, feel they need.

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    • Fandyllic wrote:
      Perhaps your standards are low and not other people's standards are too high.

      You can't compare UCP to Message Walls... that's just imbalanced and ridiculous.

      I mean how long have you even been on FANDOM? Are you an administrator for any sizable wikis? Are you responsible for fixing any of the problems that UCP has caused? You need to have some experience and some responsibility to have credibility.

      Think of this as your favorite carmaker deciding to completely redo their cars, but the new model is buggy, unreliable, and unpredictable, but with no real manual. You're telling me you would be fine with that?

      Perhaps you were too quick to jump to conclusions about me.

      Are you saying that I apparently need to have been on Fandom for a specific amount of time, and I need to be an admin on a specific amount of wikis in order for me to have a say in all of this? What are your predictions about my "credibility", hm?

      I am not, in any way, trying to compare Message Walls to UCP. Of course that's ridiculous. I'm loosely comparing the feelings people had about them when they were first introduced. Not once in my original post did I compare the actual features to each other. I simply compared the "situations".

      When did I say I was ok with UCP? I clearly stated at the end of my post that I don't really like the new editor and I preferred a lot of things in the old editor. From what I've gathered from your post, it seems as if you jumped at the first sign of the word "overhating" to come to a false conclusion about what my intents what this post were. I'm not saying that UCP is perfect. I'm not saying it has zero problems. I'm saying that the way people are reacting to it is irrational and won't help make it better in the slightest.

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    • Kortooney wrote:

      Perhaps you were too quick to jump to conclusions about me.

      Are you saying that I apparently need to have been on Fandom for a specific amount of time, and I need to be an admin on a specific amount of wikis in order for me to have a say in all of this? What are your predictions about my "credibility", hm?

      Yes and your credibility is currently low in my opinion.

      Kortooney wrote:

      I am not, in any way, trying to compare Message Walls to UCP. Of course that's ridiculous. I'm loosely comparing the feelings people had about them when they were first introduced. Not once in my original post did I compare the actual features to each other. I simply compared the "situations".

      The situations are also not comparable. You compared a single, not super important feature to an entire engine and UI overhaul.

      Kortooney wrote:

      When did I say I was ok with UCP? I clearly stated at the end of my post that I don't really like the new editor and I preferred a lot of things in the old editor. From what I've gathered from your post, it seems as if you jumped at the first sign of the word "overhating" to come to a false conclusion about what my intents what this post were. I'm not saying that UCP is perfect. I'm not saying it has zero problems. I'm saying that the way people are reacting to it is irrational and won't help make it better in the slightest.

      I never said you were okay with UCP. I was just pointing out how your reasoning wasn't very compelling or convincing.

      I also like how you avoided answering my questions.

      I've addressed the reaction of users in other threads, but I'll repeat some of it here. What you might consider overreaction is because users probably think any underreaction might have no effect. History tells us they are probably right (history meaning the experience of FANDOM users who have been around for more than 5 years and some us more than 10).

      Someone who has popped into FANDOM less than a year ago, can't possibly understand the feelings of long time users.

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    • Paramount1106 wrote:
      All of that is true, but have you considered the possibility that within 10-12 months from now, that people change their mind about the new platform.

      Sure some of them are frustrated about the changes, but this might or might not be something that will calm down over time once the platform is in a more stabilized position in regards to the interface and the features.

      Yes, I did consider this possibility. I know that UCP will get better over time, which may make people change their mind about it. However, I still hope that people who are thinking of leaving Fandom see my post and not leave.

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    • Fandyllic wrote:
      Kortooney wrote:

      Perhaps you were too quick to jump to conclusions about me.

      Are you saying that I apparently need to have been on Fandom for a specific amount of time, and I need to be an admin on a specific amount of wikis in order for me to have a say in all of this? What are your predictions about my "credibility", hm?

      Yes and your credibility is currently low in my opinion.


      Kortooney wrote:

      I am not, in any way, trying to compare Message Walls to UCP. Of course that's ridiculous. I'm loosely comparing the feelings people had about them when they were first introduced. Not once in my original post did I compare the actual features to each other. I simply compared the "situations".

      The situations are also not comparable. You compared a single, not super important feature to an entire engine and UI overhaul.


      Kortooney wrote:

      When did I say I was ok with UCP? I clearly stated at the end of my post that I don't really like the new editor and I preferred a lot of things in the old editor. From what I've gathered from your post, it seems as if you jumped at the first sign of the word "overhating" to come to a false conclusion about what my intents what this post were. I'm not saying that UCP is perfect. I'm not saying it has zero problems. I'm saying that the way people are reacting to it is irrational and won't help make it better in the slightest.

      I never said you were okay with UCP. I was just pointing out how your reasoning wasn't very compelling or convincing.

      I also like how you avoided answering my questions.

      I've addressed the reaction of users in other threads, but I'll repeat some of it here. What you might consider overreaction is because users probably think any underreaction might have no effect. History tells us they are probably right (history meaning the experience of FANDOM users who have been around for more than 5 years and some us more than 10).

      Someone who has popped into FANDOM less than a year ago, can't possibly understand the feelings of long time users.

      You literally said in your reply "you're telling me you would be fine with that?" which means you suggested that I was ok with UCP.

      The reason I avoided answering your questions is because I did not see them as having any significance to the discussion. Why you would base your opinion of my opinion solely on stats confuses me.

      Saying that Message Walls are "not super important feature" is false. People communicate to other wiki users using their message wall/talk page. And even more, people reacted to the addition of Message Walls in the same way they reacted to UCP: leaving Fandom, being frustrated, a lot of people complaining. I agree that with UCP, there are a lot more people doing those things than with Message Walls, but saying the situations aren't comparable in one way or another simply isn't true.

      Now, since you seem to keep bringing up how long I have been on Fandom, I have created my account a little more than a year ago, but that is because before that, I didn't find it necessary to create an account. If you count the times before when I was contributing to Fandom wikis, but didn't create an account yet, then you could say I've been on Fandom for 2 1/2 years. According to what you consider "credible", I'm sure you think this info proves me unreliable.

      I do find it amusing that you thought I was only on Fandom for less than a year, though. Do I really sound that inexperienced? ​​​

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    • Kortooney wrote:

      Do I really sound that inexperienced?

      Totally. An anonymous user is often restricted in what they can edit and they absolutely can't be admins or moderators. You don't have near enough experience to understand a large chunk of the user base who have put lots of effort into trying to make great wikis while you dabbled around.

      Come back when you've had more experience.

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    • Even 2.5 years ago is recent compared to some other users. So I agree with Fandyllic's assumption that, generally speaking, a user that has been around that long is not likely to have the same depth of experience and/or engrained habit of using Fandom wikis a certain way. However, it is long enough for power users to start getting that way. So it really all depends on how you have been using Fandom these past few years.

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    • This is somewhat misleading... the reason customized code couldn't easily be micrated or ported to MediaWiki 1.33 is because of the longstanding neglect of updating the base MediaWiki engine which  made the task even harder and near impossible, since FANDOM didn't maintain the expertise to do the job anyway.

      I know it’s misleading, but as I’m someone hasn’t been around as long as you have, I don’t have the same experience. I only said that because that was what I’ve gathered throughout my time here on Fandom, both as UpnCbs06 and Paramount1106. But okay, I should’ve done more research before typing that.

      You need to understand that editors have been accustomed to a certain feature set for near a decade and FANDOM demonstrated they deprioritized the comfort of existing users for their own priorities which make contributing much more difficult for those "volunteers" who are the basis for FANDOM's entire business.


      This is also true, and I understand the frustration of users when they hear that Chat and Forums were discontinued. However, again, I was only saying what I knew about the situation, which isn’t as much as you and I get that.

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    • Fandyllic wrote:
      Kortooney wrote:

      Do I really sound that inexperienced?

      Totally. An anonymous user is often restricted in what they can edit and they absolutely can't be admins or moderators. You don't have near enough experience to understand a large chunk of the user base who have put lots of effort into trying to make great wikis while you dabbled around.

      Come back when you've had more experience.

      What I've gotten from your replies is that your entire argument is based around the idea that I "wouldn't get it". I am well aware that I'm not a very experienced Fandom wiki user, and I definitely don't have as much coding experience as users who were on this site much longer than me. But I fail to understand how this has any relevance to the conversation. I was expressing my opinion on how people are reacting to UCP, and you decide to attack my credibility and tell me I have low standards.

      I'm sorry if I said anything wrong in this thread that may have come off as harsh/angry tone. It was not my intention to provoke anyone here, I simply wanted to have a discussion. I tend to be very passionate in expressing opinions... I'll change the original post so it doesn't sound like an attack on people.

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    • Kortooney wrote:

      But I fail to understand...

      Yes. And yes, I attacked your credibility, because to trust someone's opinions they need to have credibility.

      Don't apologize for your tone, just try to have better rationales for your arguments.

      I don't think anyone who has hated on UCP cares about this thread, so don't worry about hurting people's feelings. Just try to stand in their shoes for a little longer.

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    • Not to say I hate it, but I do dislike some of the changes, and one change that seems to be universally hated (myself included in the mix), is the removal of the recent wiki activity page.

      You had ALL the info you needed on page (new pages, new uploads, comments...) in a nice and tidy format so you could see what was going on with the wiki, and now... it's all scattered across multiple pages on the wiki with excess information that makes it all look cluttered.

      I mean here, take a look at this:

      https://community.fandom.com/wiki/Special:WikiActivity

      And then take a look at this:

      https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Special:RecentChanges

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    • Fandyllic wrote:
      Kortooney wrote:

      But I fail to understand...

      Yes. And yes, I attacked your credibility, because to trust someone's opinions they need to have credibility.

      Don't apologize for your tone, just try to have better rationales for your arguments.

      I don't think anyone who has hated on UCP cares about this thread, so don't worry about hurting people's feelings. Just try to stand in their shoes for a little longer.

      I never said that people cannot hate on UCP. I said that it doesn't make any sense to leave Fandom just because of UCP.

      I find my argument personally reasonable, your argument is the one that is not. You are saying that how people are acting is completely acceptable? The anger people have towards UCP is justified, but the actions they are taking is not. They're two different things.

      I am aware that I should have credibility. But isn't the fact that I am a Fandom wiki user enough credibility?

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    • I will let other people respond... my points are clearly not getting through, so we'll see if people agree with you or not.

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    • Changes did/does. Some people view Recent Changes as "cluttered" and others view it as "compact". Which term you use just depends on which layout style you like best. Personally, I prefer Recent Changes. As far as I am aware, there are only 2 things it doesn't have that Wiki Activity does:

      1. Achievement activity
      2. Brief snippet of content from edits

      In terms of listing things like uploads, I believe Recent Changes does include that.

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    • Umm... no offense Andrewds1021, but I think you totally missed the reason why people like Wiki Activity... it isn't because of the data it has, it is the data it doesn't. I prefer Recent Changes too, because I want more info and not less, but I also understand what most of it means. For many people it is unnecessary overload, because they are either new admins/moderators or they just don't want to bother with all those details they don't care about.

      Unless Recent Changes gets much more customization than I've ever seen on a wiki before, it will not approach the simplicity and compactness of Wiki Activity.

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    • If what you say is true, then yeah, I completely missed the point. I guess I was just confused because it seems like Otakon7 is complaining that Recent Changes doesn't show enough. It sounds like they are claiming that Wiki Activity provided everything in one place but now you have to go to separate pages.

      What is it that Recent Changes shows that would confuse new users? If it is the logs, those can be hidden. There is even a button to hide them.

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    • LOL the button to hide them is exactly an example of the problem. More controls won't fix it when you don't even want to see the controls.

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    • Now, it is true that, based on what I've read about the changes, we have been using the Activity page wrong (it was meant as a edit tool/helper), but that is how users on our wikia have been using it for almost 10 years straight as it provided all we needed in a single page WHILE being nice and tidy and easy to read for normal people.

      Now, unless you specifically come to to wiki to view a page you KNOW you exists (for example, an article about a character from a show), it's really hard to navigate through.

      Think of using Windows for 10 years, and then Microsoft decides "Command line prompts are the future, we are removing UI". There is nothing wrong with that approach per se, but don't just remove the old functions people are fond of, but give people an option.



      That said, if it's not possible, I would love to see what Wikia Activity used to generate it's content, so I can create a feed page for people mimicking it.

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    • Otakon7 wrote:

      Think of using Windows for 10 years, and then Microsoft decides "Command line prompts are the future, we are removing UI". There is nothing wrong with that approach per se, but don't just remove the old functions people are fond of, but give people an option.

      LOL "nothing wrong with that approach per se"... only a Windows user would say that.... or maybe a Linux/Unix user. The cr@p people put up with...

      I understand your point, but your example isn't very good. A better example would be for Microsoft to say "we're getting rid of the basic view of Task manager, now you only get the Advanced view... don't worry you can hide some columms".

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    • I was going for the more extreme example how you can still do everything you could before, but you gotta use more tech savy methods to get it.

      I do see I can get similar results by combining the New Pages, Social Activity and Recent Changes into one feed (I assume this is what Recent Activity was in fact combining), so if they don't bring it back, I guess I could make an app or a wikia extension (if those still exist).

      Reminder, this isn't about me as an admin, but for normal users who come to visit the wiki for the content. I can't tell them "learn how the wiki works as if you were an admin level editor if you wanna navigate it".

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    • Okay. I think I understand your point better now. Thanks for explaining it a bit more.

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    • Otakon7 wrote:

      Reminder, this isn't about me as an admin, but for normal users who come to visit the wiki for the content. I can't tell them "learn how the wiki works as if you were an admin level editor if you wanna navigate it".

      Yup, I totally get that. However, I wouldn't be surprised if FANDOM staff were thinking along the lines of "t0ugh sh!t", since they were totally surprised about how many people got mad when they removed Wiki Activity.

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    • Well, people kept expanding on the fuctions of the OG wikis, so if we got a big reset button, we'll just do it over from scratch.

      Similar how some older plugins stopped working on Firefox when it switched to the new engine, so devs had to remake them.



      That said, I would like for them to simply bring them back lol

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    • Huh? Just to clarify, Recent Changes is older than Wiki Activity. The whole reason UCP doesn't have Wiki Activity is because Fandom doesn't want to rebuild it from scratch but the old code won't work with the new platform.

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    • Ah, you're right, my bad, I forgot to take into account it's a compatibility issue.

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    • Otakon7 wrote:

      Ah, you're right, my bad, I forgot to take into account it's a compatibility issue.

      It's not a compatibility issue. They just don't want to do it. FANDOM seems to have an unspoken dev policy to not make any new features that might need to keep in sync with the MediaWiki engine. Unfortunately, users aren't really a fan of that strategy, so they sometimes have to do it or basically risk Oasis Wars 2.

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    • The root of the issue is that Fandom's interests and the Wikimedia Foundation's are still very different. It is just that Fandom has waved the white flag of surrender because they can't handle the costs of developing their own parallel platform. Although, I don't understand the foundations decision to focus on Wikipedia's needs over everyone else's.

      Example, Special:PermanentLink and Special:Diff still don't work on UCP. Why? Because the default configuration assumes all pages are part of the root like "/Pagename" instead of "/wiki/Pagename". This is how Wikipedia and Gamepedia do it but it isn't how Fandom, Miraheze, ShoutWiki, or even the Mediawiki Foundation's own documentation wikis do it. All of these other hosts (and other smaller ones) all use "/wiki/Pagename". So why does the Mediawiki Foundation insist on not changing the defaults to match what most hosts use instead of what a large but singular host uses? It just doesn't make sense to me.

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    • I mean, the OG script doesn't work out of the box, so they have to modify it, hence it's not compatible as is with the new UI is what I'm getting.

      It is really similar to browser plugins as I see it lol

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    • FYI, the WikiMedia foundation has always been 99% about Wikipedia. They are also kinda crazy. I talked to a former executive and he said it was like a strange alternate universe working for them.

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    • A FANDOM user
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