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Chat Room Debacle

Hello, fellow Wikiapedians. My name is Leon, and I am currently an Administrator at the Fallout wiki. (Nukapedia) This is going to be a complete backtracking of the entire event, so please bare with me as I'm going to describe every little detail. Two days ago, we had a minor incident in chat where chat members from the ICarly wikia wiki decided to invade our chat. After talking about the incident some afterwards, we all decided to hop around as a group to other chat rooms around Wikia to see how their communities compared to ours. Our first stop was the ICarly wikia wiki, and they were actually quite nice people, and we even learned a couple things from them, which led to us finally adding in our own custom chat room welcome message.
Our next stop was the Halo Nation's chat room. We have always had a sour relationship with Halo Nation, but they had recently purged most of their leadership for corruption reasons. Because of this, we were hoping it would be a lot more pleasant of an experience, but we were met with instant hostility, which led to all of us being banned. (DISCLAIMER: It is clearly defined in Wikia general policies that Administrators must take everything as good faith at first, until actions prove otherwise. It is not the job of an Administrator to ban people.) Many of us never even got more than a sentence or even a word out before being unjustly banned. You may find the chat logs, here. As you can see, none of did anything to disrupt their chat, and yet they claimed we were invading and harassing users. This was quite obviously a lie, and me and the user Great Mara stood up to them over this entire debacle. We were banned as a result, and it wasn't until their Administrator T3CHNOCIDE came into our chat at Fallout, did we get a chance to explain our side of the story.
I managed to have myself unbanned to present my case, but no one else was pardoned, so I made sure to make my case known on the Administrator's talk-page that had banned all of us. (Along with the chat moderator SGT D Grif.) I asked him for proof, as their policies clearly dictate that all bans must be backed up by evidence. You may find that policy, here. Not only have they refused to show evidence, but they have also made a clear effort to remove my message demanding evidence, as seen here. I was polite through my entire message, so they can not use the excuse that I was using intimidating behaviour. So why am I bringing this incident to all of you here at Community Central? For two reasons:
  • First - There are still Nukapedians who are banned. Many of the users have also not been pardoned from their chat bans, and no apology has been publically withcoming.
  • Second - Myself and multiple other Nukapedians sent in reports to VSTF and Wikia Staff. They seem to be refusing to help, even though we have provided proof of their corruption and their inability to follow general Wikia ToU and policies. This is not the first time either incidents like this have happened, but Wikia Staff seems to enjoy the freedom of letting them abuse users. (This is not a general term for all Wikia Staff and VSTF. This is also just an observation, not an insult.)
    • I'm hoping that this forum will help raise awareness of the actions present at Halo Nation. Thank you for reading, and I'll be looking forward to feedback from you all. Especially from Wikia Staff and VSTF. Skål! 02:19, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Updates

  • As seen here, Karl finally responded to my message. He was not, however, able to provide any evidence, and so had digressed to removing my messages again. Another clear sign of power abuse.
    *For those of you that doubt that there have been corruption issues at Halo Nation in the past, I would kindly like to refer you to this forum.

Comments

&nbsp
To whomever may be reading this forum, I would like to point out this message left on one of Halo Nation's chat moderator's talk pages, left by the author themselves of this forum.

http://halo.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Sgt_D_Grif&diff=1347607&oldid=1343383

Thank you, and have a nice day. - — TheUltimateH4M (talk) 02:57, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Are you daft? Please read my response to Spartacus. Thank you for reiterating upon a point I already properly addressed. Skål! 03:02, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
Late post, didn't see the below argument. My apologies. — TheUltimateH4M (talk) 03:12, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
I understand. I hope my response to him was satisfactory to you as well. Skål! 03:20, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

No, you did harass a user about, as seen here. Telling someone they have a stick up their ### is harassment. Why can't you guys just leave us alone? That's all we want.--Spartacus0898 (Talk) 02:41, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

You're right. I did. I never hid this fact, as I'm seen apologizing for it in one of the links I posted here. This was in response to the fact that we were unjustly banned, and no one was willing to provide evidence to justify the bans. It was also in response to the fact that Grif came into our Fallout chat and told us all that if we didn't like their actions, we could get over it and never come back. In any case, my message to him was still legitimate. I just made the mistake of using a little ad hominem. Skål! 02:45, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Whether the administration at Halo Nation is in the wrong or not, staff (from what I've seen) generally don't get into problems like these. The best advice you're likely to get is to more or less just let it go. Sorry. User:Dzylon/SigReal

Absolutely not. If it was just me banned, I would let it go. But I am not going to stand for it when an entire group of users from my home wiki get banned for no reason. It is also the Wikia Staff's problem, as I have provided evidence that the leadership at Halo Nations has broken both Wikia policies and ToU. Skål! 02:49, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Then should I get into the fact that when I tried to appeal the chat ban with Forerunner, not only was I cut off by Karl-591, but banned for 'harassment' when I tried to contact them again? Furthermore, when Garoux tried to contact Karl earlier, Karl simply used Rollback and tried to ignore the issue entirely instead of giving a reply? Message 02:54, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I misread your comments.--Spartacus0898 (Talk) 03:08, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

But you are right, though, in a sense. I do regret to insulting him as my first response to his actions against us. Just have to take into account how frustrating the situation was at the time. I won't make the mistake of saying such things again. Skål! 03:10, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the apology. Didn't T3CHNOCIDE work it out with you guys that you would let us know when you were coming to our chat? That's what I heard.--Spartacus0898 (Talk) 03:13, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
Sort of. We agreed from now on if we plan on joining either chat room with a large group, we'd send a message in advance to let everyone know. This forum is for the removal of unjust bans, and a possible apology though. I'm just trying to look out for the users at my home wiki. I hope you can understand. Skål! 03:18, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
Ok, I understand. Hopefully we can work out the ban issue then.--Spartacus0898 (Talk)' 03:24, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

I would just like to point out that I was banned during one of the previous incidents referenced by GarouxBloodline and was unjustly banned a few seconds after joining the chat. I decided that the two wikis had gotten past the drama, so I tried re-entering, and it seems that I am still banned from HN's chat. I went to an admin to ask about my ban while that administrator was online, and I was promptly ignored as he went on editing and talking to others. I only mention this because I won't show up in the chat logs and I would really like the opportunity to return to Halo Nation's chat as I do have friends there and everywhere else. ~ Toci ~ Go ahead, make my day. 03:45, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Godzilla doesn't go on the chat at all, so he probably didn't care about it. I suggest asking T3CHNOCIDE if you want to be unbanned.--Spartacus0898 (Talk)' 04:19, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
Well, that would have been helpful at the time. Thanks, I guess, but at this point, it's much easier to have my ban lifted with everyone else's in this fora. ~ Toci ~ Go ahead, make my day. 04:41, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

I would like to point out that it is not the VSTF's job to deal with such issues. When to take action on a wiki is clearly set in our policies, therefore accusing us of ignorance disregards the point that such reports should not be sent to us. The way to go is Special:Contact/general—I cannot provide an explanation for the lack of response or action on Staff's side, as I am not involved in that. TK-999 (talk) 13:06, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Hi TK, I'm glad to hear you say that as last night the nukapedia chatroom was "warned off" visiting the Halo Nation Wiki by a VSTF on pain of them reporting it to staff... One of the VTSF members said, and I quote "Next time you guys cause trouble for them, staff will get involved Is that understood?" at 11:27 London Time There was more I wont post but this member by their own admission was ignorant of the full facts of the issue. I wont name the person, but please contact me direct if a log is required. Agent c (talk) 16:01, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry if that happened. As far as I can see, this was unilateral action—he also apologized for it in our channel earlier this day, so the incident should not be repeated. Sorry for the inconvenience.TK-999 (talk) 17:22, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
:Sorry about that, didn't mean to come off so harshly. --Callofduty4 (talk) 21:04, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

I have to say, this is one of the most disgraceful cases of power abuse and bullying by admins I have ever seen... --IK Talk 19:59, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Staff reply

Hi, we've replied to some mail on this today, but it seems that the issues have expanded enough to need a public reply here.

Halo Wiki: Staff do intervene in blocks occasionally (although we prefer not to have to). In this case, we don't see a need to do so, and you should block as the admins and community think best for your wiki. Please do not go to Fallout Wiki's chat - if that's something you had considered.

Fallout Wiki: Please do not go back to Halo Wiki's chat. As you won't be using it, any blocks there are irrelevant, please forget about them and move on. If you individually want to become a member of the Halo community, then that is something you will need to work on over time. I recommend starting by improving articles, getting to know the local community and its norms, and not getting involved in controversies. Outside of that, please don't interfere with the wiki or its chat.

I'll also add here a scenario that I sent to one of those involved: Imagine a group of regulars are in the Fallout chat one afternoon, when suddenly 10 extra people join. They say they are from WoWWiki, and want to know whether it's true that Fallout admins are totally unfair in their blocks. They talk about various things besides that, dominating the chat and diverting the usual conversation.

They wouldn't have to be doing anything that's actually wrong to be disruptive, the presence of a large group of non-regulars in a chat (especially ones asking provocative questions about the wiki) is disruptive in itself.

The details may not be exactly the same, but I'm pretty much certain that if that happened the Fallout mods' reaction would be similar to that on Halo.

So I ask that both sides move on from this dispute, and go back to editing your different (and unique) wikis. Thank you. -- sannse WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 20:16, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

And in response to that sannse, the scenario did actually play out only a few days ago with another wiki (other than CoD or HN). And I do believe not a single one was banned from chat. One of them even broke our local chat rules (no caps lock) and was not banned, instead the individual was warned. Indeed, that was not the only time, it has happened that others wikis have on several occasions visited without incident. You see, we are a lot more tolerable of other, and do not stereotype people to the point of banning them on sight.
Plus I am interested in your comment about how staff prefer not to intervene in local matters. Because after the VSTF members incident, we had a staff member from the CoD wiki post this in our chat "Please keep your drama out of my chat", then proceeded to lecture our chat members and admin. This stems from one of there members bringing drama to our wiki (also posting messages on the CoD wiki to our members), and in its own right is bringing further drama to our wiki and being disruptive. So you will forgive me for not assuming good faith, in that I see that staff and volunteers alike both make the assumption of bad faith in out wiki and its community. And I think this is further indicated by your response here, as it does seem to be rather ones sided on the whole matter. Either that, or you just want to hold your head in the sand. Either way, I don't know why I am still always surprised by the bias nature of those involved, but there you go. User:GhostAvatar talk 22:57, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
Honestly, I see the response here from staff as extremely one sided. This is a community that is comprised of all of the wikias, is it not? How is the mass banning as demonstrated in the chat log for no apparent reason not an abuse of power? I'll use your example from above:
::I'll also add here a scenario that I sent to one of those involved: Imagine a group of regulars are in the Fallout chat one afternoon, when suddenly 10 extra people join. They say they are from WoWWiki, and want to know whether it's true that Fallout admins are totally unfair in their blocks. They talk about various things besides that, dominating the chat and diverting the usual conversation.
They wouldn't have to be doing anything that's actually wrong to be disruptive, the presence of a large group of non-regulars in a chat (especially ones asking provocative questions about the wiki) is disruptive in itself.
My fellow Nukapedians did not go in and start talking Fallout, one user simply asked about the bans which most people use chat for if someone like a friend or what not has been banned. It was very apparent that Sgt D Grif just blatantly kicked our people because of who they were. Period, not because they were doing something wrong but because they were a certain type of people. That kind of behavior is uncalled for in any admin on any wiki period. But if you are willing to not assume good faith on our part, so be it.I honestly do not think I nor any of my other Nukapedians should be banned from a chat room because we don't fit their "favorite type of person". Should we have our own drinking fountains too? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I just think this is utterly distasteful and I agree with everything Ghost has to say. Good night.--Kingclyde (talk) 00:32, August 28, 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply Sannse, I will be sure to direct Fallout members to this post before asking them politely to leave in future.
T3CHNOCIDE ~ Halo Nation Admin. 23:47, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
^^^ And this is the result of that choice sannse. It will now be used as an excuse and sole reasoning to kick and/or ban people on sight. You have simply opened the door to mistrust and abuse of power. Whatever happened to the assumption of good faith, this choice has lead things in totally the wrong direction. But if that is the way it is going to be. Then I think, by all rights if this is how it is going to be on one end, then I should perma-ban any member of HN from our wiki, on sight, without due provocation, or any means of recourse. User:GhostAvatar talk 01:12, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about Halo Nation. I have a friend or two there to whom I'd like to pay a visit, but I guess not. All I'm going to say is that if anyone from Halo Nation wishes to visit the Nukapedia chat/community, they will not be in any trouble or held to a different standard while I'm around. If any admin or regular user for that matter should commit an act of or make a comment relating to this incident as a negative, they will be punished by I, myself. I will not tolerate any sort of hate like that anywhere on any wiki. Now, the following is just my two-cents. Do not take it in an insulting manner or by any other negative means. This note has no malicious intent whatsoever: I'm not going to argue with Sannse's decree, but I don't agree with it AT ALL. Wikia is supposed to be a public community that anyone can skim across at will. Sannse telling us that we are forbidden from visiting each other's chats is an extremely unfair decision, as it gives them the power to kick and ban us at will simply because of our backgrounds. I thought discrimination was against the ToU, but the almighty have spoken, I guess. Anyways, back to my original statement: I will not be hopping on the bigot train. Halo Nation members and any member of the Wikia community is welcome at Nukapedia chat, and they always will be. Halo Nation users, I now speak directly to you. If you are ever kicked and/or banned from our chat because of what wiki you come from, then tell me about it. I will personally investigate the situation and see to it that you are treated fairly. I'd argue with my bureaucrats if it meant fair treatment for all. Alright. My line in the sand is drawn and clearly marked. That's all I have to say on this matter. I will not reply to any other message or response to me on this subject - don't take it as rude. I simply do not wish for this bickering to continue any further. Now, let's all get back to editing. ~ Toci ~ Go ahead, make my day. 00:51, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

Just for clarification, I am a minor editor and a chatter at Nukapedia. Now, onto my 2 cents:

What happened with HN was extremely uncalled for and not warranted at all. I may not have been there for the incident, but Leon and a few other of my friends from Nukapedia have informed me in detail of what has happened. What the administrators did was downright power abuse and a violation of Assuming Good Faith, and you're just gonna let it slide? I'm sorry, but that is just unacceptable. What the administrators on Halo Nation did is at least deserving of some punishment. Maybe a temporary removal of rights? Nevertheless, just because both of our wikis have sour relationships with one another does not mean that we should go around banning people for simply joining our or their chat, and I completely support Leon, Toci, Clyde and Ghost in this matter. Cheese Lord (talk) 01:41, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

So Sannse, you are saying I can't go into Halo chat anymore even if I went a little bit before this all happened? If that is what you are saying, it is extremely idiotic to say we can't another wiki's chat as we are all one community in the end.ToCxHawK Hawk da Barber 2012 - BSHU Graduate 02:37, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

A quick note. I've read the comments, but won't have a chance to reply until tomorrow. In the mean time, I ask that everyone let this rest for now, and go back to editing on your wikis. I won't protect this page, but would prefer that no one add to it until I have had a chance to respond. That includes responding to the latest message below. Thank you -- sannse WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 03:28, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

For all Fallout members

Those who have been banned, please feel free to comment here, but for those who have not been banned, and are simply commenting because the members are from your wiki please note that this is NOT a Fallout wiki issue, and that Fallout has no jurisdictional powers in our wiki. It is our job as administrators of Halo Nation to deal with problems that arise on our wiki, and is not up for discussion from members who are not members of our community, or are involved in the current dispute. This was not power abuse, but simply a misjudgement of character caused by questionable activity from the Fallout wiki previously, which had led to this unfortunate incident.

You have now received your formal reply from the Wikia staff. The matter has been dealt with, and has fallen in favour of the administration of Halo Nation. Any amount of accusing, and complaining will not change this fact, and nor will it make our community any more eager to reduce or change your bans after heavily insulting us as such. If you have been banned from the wiki I ask that you please be patient and bare the remainder of the ban duration, as we expect any other user too.

As for using our facilities. All users regardless of background and location are free to use our chat and wiki, if you are a member of our community and have regularly visited our wiki before (as with the case of ToCxHawK who regularly visits our chat) please feel free to return without fear of being turned back. For members who legitimately wish to take part in our community and are banned, please use our wiki email system to email an admin as to why you should be unbanned and why you wish to take part in our community, users who do not use polite mannerisms will be refused, plain and simple. And for those who wish to visit our site merely in defiance of Sannse's judgement you will be politely asked to leave the chat and given a chance to leave, those who do not head our warning will be banned, so please respect moderation authority.

Regards,

T3CHNOCIDE.

After our conversation yesterday T3chnocide, I was hoping to try and maintain the diaglogue it seemed we had started and planned to relay you any information I became aware of that suggested any type of "trolling" being arranged, and planned on encouraging other moderators/admins who became aware of doing the same. If this is going to be the response, please note that any cooperation in this regard is at an end. However unlike Sannses recommendation as far as I am concerned, Halo Nation wiki members are welcome to join our chatroom - as you yourself have in recent days, and will not be turned away upon sight nor will they be banned without cause. Agent c (talk) 12:15, August 28, 2012 (UTC)
:Is there any consensus or written discussion about this policy with other admins of your wiki or even an actual bureaucrat? Furthermore, have you copied your intended addition to the policies into your actual chat rules page?
:ADDENDUM: This is not a decree. Sannse has not worded it as such, and the administration of your wiki is supposed to deal with this. Please do not take action under the guise that you are "following orders" as if this were the freaking military. --SigmaDelta54 18:28, August 28, 2012 (UTC)
"Those who have been banned, please feel free to comment here, but for those who have not been banned, and are simply commenting because the members are from your wiki please note that this is NOT a Fallout wiki issue, and that Fallout has no jurisdictional powers in our wiki."
Errr T3CHNOCIDE.... how about no. Let me introduce you to a simple concept, this is NOT ( <-- yes I can shout on the internet also) the HN wiki and you have no right or authority here to dictate who and what can be said here. At least sannse asked in a polite manor where authority does exist, and I would have respected that - until I read your post. Frankly your approach of dictating, where no authority exists, what can and cant be said and by whom has pissed me off to the point that I have to respond.
Additionally, the fact that the response from staff is a blanket approach to the entire community of the Fallout wiki, that they are essentially not allowed to visit another chat, has now made this a Fallout wiki related issue also. If the response was contained to those individuals involved, then there wouldnt be an issue. But now it affects the entire community including those not involved and have done no wrong nor wish to do wrong in the future, thats where I draw the line in the sand and have to speak up. User:GhostAvatar talk 19:58, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

In light of Sannse's latest response, it is confirmed that everything is up to the administration of your wiki. Do not hide behind the pretence that you are doing what Wikia says - claim responsibility for your own actions. And please realise the limitations of your "authority". --SigmaDelta54 20:14, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

Time-Line

I know you expressed your concerns over us responding until you got your say in today Sannse, however, I am going to be busy today, and possibly tomorrow as well, so I am going to write my further thoughts out anyways so I won't forget to do so later. Now, I am going to create a timeline here of events happening at Halo Nation. If I miss anything, please let me know. Just remember that I am only listing facts though. You know, stuff that actually has evidence behind it.
  • I linked to the Halo Nation chat as our next stop from the ICarly wiki chat room.
    *Many users were in chat before me. This includes Denis and HawK.
    *Denis wanted to alleviate some of his concerns by asking the Halo Nation chat room about previous bans on Nukapedians, including asking them if they advocate it.
    *This started off rather civil at first. Then, the Halo Nation chat goers started making fun of Denis, provoking him to become more emotional in his questions.
    *Denis left after being made fun of. Chat goers proceeded to make fun of him behind his back afterwards.*
  • This is when myself and the rest of us joined over from Nukapedia. We were banned instantenously, and without warning. I am a perfect example of why this was power abuse. I only got this one smiley in, ":3" and I was banned.
    *Great Mara and I proceeded to make our concerns heard. (I did use a little ad hominem at first.) We were banned as a result of questioning their judgment.
    *The chat moderator who participated in the banning, Grif, came into the Fallout chat just to express that if we didn't like the bans, we could get over it and never come back. Grif leaves.
    *T3CHNOCIDE comes into the Fallout chat, and talkes to me in private chat. He removes my ban so I can defend myself, but not my chat ban, nor the bans of anyone else.
    *Karl resigns. Is given back his rights by the 'crat UltraForce. This was done without community consensus.
    *I try and present my case to the Administrator who advocated Grif's banning spree. Karl and T3CHNO proceed to remove any and all messages. I answer this by undoing their edits.
    *Karl finally answers me back. He refuses to provide evidence to back up his bans, and resorts to telling me I should just #### off and leave them alone.
    *I partition for Great Mara's ban to be removed. I was subsequently ignored for a while, and finally Mara's ban was eventually reduced to just a 2 hour ban.
If you want proof to the claims I added to this timeline, I have provided links in the forum section. Now, what does this timeline prove? Let me explain:
  • Only one user was expressing their concerns over Halo Nation. It also clearly stated in Wikia policies that users have a right to ask about bans and incidents without fallout, as long as it's not an obvious attempt to flame and/or troll. As seen in the chat logs, he was merely asking them a question. And how did they respond? By personally attacking him, and essentially forcing him out of the chat feature.
  • There were at least 6-8 other Nukapedeans that came into the Halo Nation chat room, including myself. Most of us never got a sentence in. And yet, we were banned without even a warning.
  • Halo Nation policies clearly state that no one can be banned without evidence to back up the ban clearly available to the public eye. So that means that they broke their own policy in order to ban us.
  • Wikia is based in the States. According to internet law(s), here in the States, it is unlawful to actively discriminate against any individual or group because of their: race, gender, sexuality, clique(s), interests, private life, etc. etc.
    • So not only is Wikia breaking their own ToU by advocating this active discirimination, without any justifications towards doing so, but this type of discirimination is also unlawful, and we are protected by laws to have the right to go anywhere we damn well please on the public features of the internet such as Wikia, as long we are not purposefully disrupting. I have provided proof that this is not the case, however, and that this is merely an attempt to get back at us because of past incidents. For further proof of this claim, please thoroughly read the conversation between Karl and I, on his tak-page on Halo Nation. For a link, please read through the actual forum.
  • Administrators at Halo Nation have actively attempted to remove evidence of this situation. This is seen by the fact that they only provide a partial chat log, and by their attempts to remove my messages on Karl's talk-page.
  • Wikia policies also clearly state that good faith must be taken at first in any situation. By banning us first, and asking questions later, this policy was utterly demolished and shoved into a dark corner. And now, even Wikia takes Nukapedia into bad faith, as shown here. We have provided proof. Halo Nation has not provided any ounce of proof to support their side. So how in the world can you take them into good faith, and not us? Once again, this is actively discriminating. Further seen by this whole affair becoming a clear conflict of interest, now that Sannse has made her presence. I would like to point out that Sannse has been in Fallout disputes before. I personally don't have a problem with Sannse herself, but she has made many questionable actions at Nukapedia. One of which was the protection of a known troll at our wiki. (Just look up the conversation about Aestune.) So not only have we been taken into bad faith for no clear reason, but we are also being judged by a conflict of interest. I hardly see this as fair. ForGaroux Some Assembly Required! 19:57, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

Garoux, I would also like to add this is not the first time clear wrongdoing on the part of HN chat mods has been shown. A little more than a month ago, myself and several users went over to their chat. Following manipulated evidence to show bad faith and to incriminate, we were all banned from the chat despite not breaking any of their rules. After I sent a complaint to T3CHNOCIDE (who, unsurprisingly, was the one that banned us), the chat ban was repealled. This is not dissimilar to one of the instances you have described above and I believe is key to showing that this is not a first at all and there has been a history of significant wrongdoing (to put it nicely) on the part of the HN Wiki administration (particularly, their chat mods). SigmaDelta54 20:22, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

another over-long reply to all

There are wikis on Wikia where disagreeing with the admins will get you an instant perminant ban. There are wikis where the founder starts the wiki off by banning all admins from another site (even though those admins have never been to the new one). There are wikis where you have to have a certain number of edits before you are allowed to join chat. Then there are ones where the admins have decided not to enable chat at all and none of the community are able to participate there.

In all these cases, I believe the choices made are not the best. But in each of those cases, staff will usually allow the decisions made by the founder/admins/communities of those wikis to stand, and will rarely interfere with their rules. The ideal is always for a community to run a wiki, even if staff disagree (there are exceptions to this, but it remains an ideal)

In the case of this dispute, the chat mods removed a group of people, because they believed it was in the best interests of their wiki to do so. Staff respect this decision, and their right to make it. If they had decided to ban everyone with a nick beginning with the letter s, we would probably feel the same way (well... with less respect for the decision...)

To give an example closer to home, if we were asked to look in to Fallout Wiki and assess a discussion about removing an admin's rights, we would look it over... but untimately would decide that it's a local issue and not one we would interfere in (yes, we were... and yes, we did).

Some more specific replies:

Ghost Avatar: It's your right to do what you believe is right for your wiki (with certain limitations of course). That you choose to be patient is to your credit, it doesn't change that it's your choice.

On the staffer, I believe you are talking about a Wikia Intern. He was not acting as a staff member in this case, and he tells me that he explained that at the time. It can be hard for people who hold two roles (especially when one is a tempory intern position) to keep those roles separate, but it's something we all work to do. Those who have admin roles as well as staff roles will keep doing our best to keep those separate, and to make it clear if we are speaking as an admin for our home wiki. The VSTF are also expected to make it clear when they are acting in an admin or general contributor role, and to keep their VSTF interventions within their area of responsibility.

Kingclyde: It may be an abuse of power (or may not be) but that's not the point. The point is that it's a local decision. It seems the later bans were in response to earlier problems and bans. If the Halopedia admins/mods felt that the new group of people coming in to the channel were continuing the disruption, then it's up to them to decide what to do about it.

Toci: I agree that continuing this dispute is a bad idea, I don't see an easy resolution here. Returning to editing sounds like a great idea.

ToCxHawK: I'm asking that those from Fallout involved in this leave Halo chat alone. Especially if you are going there as a group or to continue this dispute. I also suggested that if you want to be a part of that community, that you go ahead and become part of it. If that means you are an occasional editor and chatter there, then great! All I'm asking is that you participate as a member of that wiki, and for the benefit of that wiki. If you already do that, then there's no problem. Please note that I also asked Halo to keep out of Fallout's chat.

T3CHNOCIDE: The staff decision has not "fallen in favour of the administration of Halo Nation", I declined to make a decision, other than to ask those involved to leave each other alone. What I said is that who to ban is your (collective) decision. I'd hope that the admins and mods talk about any important bans to make sure you are hitting the right level. And overall, I'd love to see you find ways to mend the underlying tensions, and get along with your neighbouring wiki. And (of course) that goes for Fallout Wiki too :)

That's a much longer reply than I wanted to give, but I wanted to be complete!

-- sannse

Then I think perhaps it may be time to review this policy of non interference, and perhaps look at some interference when wikis are creating a hostile enviornment for newcomers, and coaching for wikis who are having trouble with this. Wikia seems to want to move beyond just a place where people host wikis, and instead create a connected community between wikis - We see this in the advertisements at the bottom of pages, through twitter actions, groups like wikia games, and more. This is admirable, and benefits both us in the wikis, and wikia too.
When a wiki creates an environment that makes it hostile for new people to join in, then this is reflected on the rest of us. A person hashly turned away elsewhere will be less likely to contribute to any wiki, losing us a possible contributor (and Wikia possible ad revenue). Halo Nation, by one of their own admins admission to me, have created a place that seems hostlie to new users, this reflects on wikia (its not halonation.com after all, its halo.wikia.com). The question is, does wikia care enough about the damage to its repuation to do something about it? Agent c (talk) 20:25, August 28, 2012 (UTC)
Sannse, I do not have an issue with HN or there local policies, actions, and/or sanctions - other than the morality of it, which is a different matter and subject to perspective and opinion. I may not have respect for them because of it, but it is theirs to do with as is. My issue stems from your response to the situation. It has targeted and generalised an entire community. If the response had been directed towards those individuals involved, then there wouldn't be an issue. But as it stands, it generalises and encompasses an entire group - many of which are not involved and have done no wrong. At that point it does become a Fallout wiki issue also. As a bureaucrat for that wiki and representative of the community I am forced to speak out on behalf of said community. As you can see from responses by others within that community, they now feel wronged. And rightly so, to be painted with the same brush as a few individuals who may or may not have ill intentions towards another wiki.
Which brings me to the two main reasons that I feel this generalisations has achieved. Firstly, the Fallout wiki has a certain bad reputation amongst some over communities. Whether that is deserved is a matter of debate, I am sure both sides can sling mud at each other all day about who did what and when to no avail. Personally I do not thing certain individuals on either side are innocent or without wrong doing. But that is not the point. The point is that this response has essentially endorsed that view point and sealed it with a rubber stamp from the staff for other communities to then do as they wish in response.
Which bring me onto the other issue. The apparent stamp of approval from the staff and the usage as a means to endorse there own actions, which is already apparent by some of the responses already on this forum, is already in the process. Now if HN decided to create and enforce the banning of the Fallout community by there own means, by which every way they run things there, again that is there place to do so. But to use this as an excuse, then hide behind that they have staff backing behind it, is vastly wrong and a complete misuse of this whole process.
So I request that you amend your previous response to only include those involved, instead of a blanket generalisation.
As for the staffer, I have checked the chat logs and they did not express in what capacity they where, until 15 mins afterwards, and only when it was brought up by another member of chat. But that is a different matter for a later discussion I think. User:GhostAvatar talk 21:11, August 28, 2012 (UTC)
I will happily agree that wikis should be open to new users, and should not act in hostility and alienate them. However I also believe that admins of a wiki should take a stronger approach on the allowance of users to freely post foreign wiki chats followed by the phrase "Let's go troll this wiki", even if the post was made as a joke it still has undesirable effects on that wiki's ethos. This incident that happened on the Fallout wiki lead to inevitable mistrust, and a community dislike of multiple Fallout members joining our chat at once. It is completely understandable that our moderators acted as quickly as they could in a pre-emptive strike against what could have been a another chat invasion - an admirable trait that shows that our moderators care for the dynamics of our wiki.
As some advice to prevent this from happening again, I advise not allowing members to link our chat on your main chat room, that way it will prevent a sudden influx in users which would be seen as a chat invasion. I would also advise that when an admin posts a foreign wiki and asks their members to troll that chat (a joke or not) to act on the issue, and not to shove all the blame on one of your members and ban him. However, that is advice, take it or leave it, it's up to you. As for our inter-wiki relations, keep your policies to your wiki, and we shall keep our policies to our wiki.
Regards,
T3CHNOCIDE ~ Halo Nation Admin. 21:19, August 28, 2012 (UTC)
You know, I am almost speechless. You sit here advocating and defending that you can run your wiki as you please. That these allegations have no merit as it is your way and no one can tell you how to run your wiki. Then you have the balls to tell us how we should be running our wiki. Seriously, I have no respect for you at this point in time. User:GhostAvatar talk 21:33, August 28, 2012 (UTC)
T3chnocide, you have basically just admitted that your moderators are incapable of doing their job. They assume because 3 people enter its a troll invasion. They do not judge based on content, they do not judge based on their actions. They just shoot first and ask questions later.
Had this event occured on Nukapedia, we'd currently have 3 less chat moderators - yes I know our rules don't apply, but I would have thought the concenpt of "Justice" and "Evidence' were not foriegn to your wiki - particularly as your posted guidelines state that no kicks and bans will be issued unless there is evidence of wrongdoing - evidence you have been asked for time and time again, but is clearly lacking.
Ultimately I see a complete lack of leadership ability here. Agent c (talk) 21:37, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

Just something further Sannse, and I ask for forgiveness for bringing up Ancient History... But when a former Vault Bureaucrat (and Wikia employee) contacts an administrator of a different wiki to ask them to stop using the word "Official" in their branding as they had no legal right to do so (this right being owned by his new employer), this was seen as making a demand of another user and worthy of a global block (despite this seeming like a perfectly legitimate cause of action for a rights holder to take). When we inform you of breaches of other wikia rules and guidelines, its a local issue that Wikia doesn't want to be involved with. Its contradictions like these that fuel some of the anger you are seeing today, and I hope you will take this precedent into account. Agent c (talk) 21:42, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

Current suggestion issue

Sannse, your current suggestion for the Nukapedia Fallout wikia, its community, administrative staff and contributors, is in direct violation of the Wikia Community terms of use agreement, a contract between user and service host. I shall now quote section 3 “User Conduct”, bullet 1 of the terms of use agreement:

You agree not to use the service to […] Abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate or intimidate other Wikia users


In this section it is clear that abuse, agreed by the user (including all members), is not to be used within the Wikia Community service. Your suggestion evidently shows that any and all users who frequent the Nukapedia Fallout wikia, whether or not they have any dealings past or present with Halo Nation, may not enter the Halo Nation wikia chat without reprimands.

To block user access on the basis of what wikia they frequent, or have contributed to, is discrimination. I now quote the website ‘dictionary.com’:

Dis•crim•i•na•tion

Noun
Treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction infavor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.


I need not tell you that this accurately defines the suggestion of blocking the entire Nukapedia Fallout wikia community from access to the Halo Nation wikia, but I do feel the need to tell you that discrimination is an act of abuse. Because of this your suggestion is in violation of the aforementioned terms of use agreement, and the administrative staff of Halo Nation would not be able to enforce such a thing.

My view on this is that leniency has been placed upon the Halo Nation wikia, the actions of a few of their administrative staff have not been desirable nor tolerable in the current circumstance and far too much blame has been placed solely on the Nukapedia Fallout wikia for what it is worth. Instead of specific users being targeted and disciplined, I see entire communities branded.

I will act in assumption of good faith, and further hope that the Wikia Community staff can come to a new suggestion on how to deal with the issue at hand without violating the terms of use or the faith we, as a community, put in the staff. Gothic NekoNeko's Haunt 20:19, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

Kudos, Neko. You said what I said in a much more condensed and concise way. I really do hope they can take this into account. ForGaroux Some Assembly Required! 20:51, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

Conclusion

So... that's it, then? Wikia absolves themselves of all responsibility in this case, and aren't even going to defend the users who were actively disciriminated against on your host? This is rather faith-shattering. ForGaroux Some Assembly Required! 20:23, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

I say we wait for a little longer. I'm interested in what they have to say and whether or not an actual solution that does not contradict everything we and Wikia believe in is presented. SigmaDelta54 21:01, August 28, 2012 (UTC)
Essentially, unless Wikia actually step in and undo our bans, as far as Halo Nation is concerned, the matter is dealt with. You may carry on contesting the matter however as plain and simple "We no longer care".
Regards,
T3CHNOCIDE ~ Halo Nation Admin. 21:21, August 28, 2012 (UTC)
Soooo...you're saying that you could care less about unjust bans, even if you KNOW they were unjust, and are too lazy to undo the bans yourself because you "no longer care", so you're going to leave it to staff? Wow. Just wow. Never in my life have I seen something so ridiculous. I don't want to sound like an ###, but what you did and the fact that you're downright admitting "Yeah, we banned them without cause, who cares?" just proves to me how sad that really is. Cheese Lord (talk) 21:28, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

No one cares if you care. We care. Wikia is also supposed to care, since the suggested "solution" is a direct violation of the ToU, as stated above by multiple users. It will always remain a mystery how you managed to become an admin with this "we no longer care" attitude. Clearly your wiki's community doesn't care who their admins are either. SigmaDelta54 21:44, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

If we're going to discuss this openly on Community Central please stick to the topic of the forum, i.e. a "chatroom debacle". Throwing around statements regarding the credibility of admins is not on-topic. --Callofduty4 (talk) 21:53, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect, Cod4, I was not calling out the admins in general but I was calling out their behavior. Don't you agree it's plain unnecessary to go banning people on sight? Because we didn't even do anything, it was just a no hold barred banning spree against us for simply joining their chat. Cheese Lord (talk) 21:59, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

I am going to put this bluntly in the hope that it is understood. "Our wiki, our management style, deal with it. Those who continue to whine about this, sod off." -Karl-591 (talk) 22:00, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

Is the credibilty of those involved not relevant? Agent c (talk) 22:01, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

Karl: you might want to consider editing your rules then. Cheese Lord (talk) 22:02, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that we just put this matter to rest. In my opinion this has gone on too long and is causing even more bad blood between both wikis. So lets end this so this can pass over. Thanks.--Kingclyde (talk) 22:03, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I started this forum to get the facts straight, and to hopefully have this matter taken into account. We've said everything we can, and now we are all just fighting with each other. Let's let Wikia Staff look everything over. And I hope they look it over thoroughly. We'll hear from them soon. ForGaroux Some Assembly Required! 22:08, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

GhostAvatar: My first comment was directed at the people looking at this page and involved in the dispute. That's why I said "back". My second comment clarified this further with "those from Fallout involved in this". I don't feel I've been ambiguous here.

Agent c: You may have been misinformed on that "ancient history". The person in question was banned for advertising on Wikia. That ban isn't something I'm going to discuss further here.

T3CHNOCIDE and Karl-591: I understand you are frustrated, but your last messages are not helping.

More generally:

One question is "is it discrimination to block people on chat on the basis that the mods/admins believe they are joining to cause trouble". The answer there is no, even if that assumption is wrong.

The next is "is it discrimination for Wikia to ban all members of a wiki from visiting the chat on another wiki". The answer there is: the question is faulty, we didn't do that.

I mentioned this above, but to add to that: What I asked is that all involved in this dispute leave the chat of the other wiki alone, especially if they are going there in a group or to continue this dispute. I also suggested that anyone could become an active and productive participant on the other wiki/chat, which would likely lead to them being happily welcomed there.

And one last major question I see - "should Wikia get intimately involved in local disputes and step in much more often?". That one I would pass back to you: should I reverse my decision from this morning, and return to fallout to make my own unilateral decision on whether CrazySam should keep his admin rights? My guess is that you prefer to keep that a local decision decided by community consensus. I agree, and also believe that this situation's chatbans are a local decision, to be decided by the local admins (and ultimately the community that chose them to make such decisions). I honestly believe that communities are the right people to run any wiki and prefer to minimize the number of times staff need to step in.

Overall, this incident has been blown out of all proportion. This is not an incident that deserves this level of debate, or this amount of rhetoric. Kingclyde said it well... let's end this. Please move on from this dispute, and go back to your own wikis. Thank you -- sannse WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 22:49, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

I can tell this is your final judgment over the matter. If this is the case, then while we don't agree with certain aspects of your words, we will respect them. I'd like to ask for this forum to be locked from further commenting. No reason to create additional animosity here. Thank you for your time. ForGaroux Some Assembly Required! 22:57, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

It seems we need to make a few adjustments to Help:Community guidelines.
  • A wiki belongs to its administrators
  • An administrator has the right to ban any user for whatever reason
Anyone feel up for the task, or shall I do it? --IK Talk 23:17, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

I did nothing, yet threats were made for my removal. Here's the proof. http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/User:Halo4master/Log?diff=1348794&oldid=1348793 40px A Safe People is a Strong People! 23:29, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

GarouxBloodline is right, it's time to lock this forum. If anyone needs to contact me directly on this topic, please do so via the contact form. Thank you -- sannse WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 23:51, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

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