User:FanofRPGs/Sandbox

Okay, so I have come to this analysis:


 * 1) Dimension referring to size (length x width x height)
 * 2) Dimension referring to pocket dimensions, universes, or realities
 * 3) Dimension referring to a spatio-temporal dimensions or geometric dimensions
 * 4) Dimensionality of a hologram, image, or map, usually two-dimensional or three-dimensional. Technically deals with geometric dimension but is obviously unrelated contextually
 * 5) The Warp, counts as Type 2 mostly
 * 6) Dimension in terms of complexity, just flowery wording basically
 * 7) Vague or Unknown

"Dimensionless are meaningless"
"Concerns of the material world intruded on his introspective plunge, and Magnus looked out on a world of shadows and deceit. He had passed from the realm of flesh to the realm of spirit without even thinking of it, and floated in a place without form and dimensions save any he desired to impose upon it. This was the entrance to the network, the nexus point that led into the labyrinth. This was what he had come to Aghoru to find."

- A Thousand Sons

This is a famous quote showing that beings could supposedly influence pure dimensionality within the warp. I do not believe it refers to dimensionality, however. Here are all references to "dimensions" in A Thousand Sons:

"“Oh. Not much really,” admitted Lemuel. He took a deep breath before continuing, like a student afraid of giving the wrong answer. “It’s a kind of higher dimension, a psychic realm where starships can travel far faster than normal. It allows astrotelepaths to communicate and, well, that’s about it.”"
 * Which is Type 5

"“No,” said Ahriman, “not without decades of training by the Corvidae. To read the multidimensional patterns of the Great Ocean and lift meaning from the meaningless requires two modalities of thought. Firstly, the rapid, accurate and efficient movement of thought from concept to concept, whereby all ideas become one; and secondly, the halting of thought altogether, were one idea is reduced to nothing. I have an eidetic memory, a mind crafted by the greatest technologists of the forgotten ages that allows me to do this. You do not."


 * This quote can be taken literally to mean Type 3, but can also be seen as Type 6 contextually, making more sense that he is referring to the many variables and parameters needed to be taken to account for the Warp

"His connection with the material world faded, and the Great Ocean swelled around him, a maelstrom of non-existent colours, nameless emotions and meaningless dimensions."


 * Could mean any type here, so Type 7, don't want to be biased in assuming it means spatial dimensions or pocket dimensions or anything, given how abstractly flowery this quote in particular is

"They rose around him like temple smoke, though concepts such as up and down had no meaning here. A swirling fog surrounded him, an impenetrable mist of emotion, feeling and possibility. His mere proximity wrought potential existences within the fog, his presence an imprint in the warp and weft of the Great Ocean, shaping and shaped by the immaterial unmatter that made up this alternate dimension."


 * Type 5

"Phosis T’kar’s bolter floated in the air in front of him, the weapon disassembled and looking like a three-dimensional diagram in an armourer’s manual. A cleaning cloth and a vial of lubricating oil moved of their own accord through its parts, guided by Phosis T’kar’s Tutelary. The faint glow of Utipa formed a haze around the components, as if a ghostly Techmarine attended the gun."


 * Type 4

"Ahriman sat up front in Scarab Prime, the consoles before the pilots alive with flickering lights, vector diagrams and tri-dimensional contour maps of the jagged terrain. Pulsing cables connected the pilots to the avionics package, allowing them to fly purely on instruments, which was just as well, as the juddering canopy of the cockpit was smeared with ash and smoke."


 * Type 4

"Worlds flashed past him as he hurtled through the swelling tides of colour, light and dimensions without name. The roiling chaos of the aether was a playground for titanic forces, where entire universes could be created and destroyed with a random thought. How many trillions of potential lives were birthed and snuffed out just by thinking such things?"


 * Contextually Type 2 makes most sense, but given what it was compared to prior. Spatial dimensions wouldn't make sense here.

"He thought he had known better than his father how to wield the power of the Great Ocean. He believed he was its master, but in the ruins of his father’s great work, he had seen the truth. The Golden Throne was the key. Unearthed from forgotten ruins sunken deep beneath the driest desert, it was the lodestone that would have unlocked the secrets of the alien lattice. Now it was in ruins, its impossibly complex dimensional inhibitors and warp buffers fused beyond salvage."


 * IDK, might be Type 2(?), will list as Type 7

"Khalophis surveyed the battlefield with the eyes of a god, a towering avatar of battle roused to fight once more. His limbs felt stiff and new, his senses taking a moment to adjust to their enormous dimensions and ponderous weight. He flexed his new body. The metallic grinding of long dormant gears and the shriek of rekindled pneumatics cut through the clamour of battle."


 * Type 1

"Ahriman clasped his hands upon the jade scarab set in his breastplate, filling his mind with its every curve and nuance, its imperfections, the intricacies of its golden mounting and the exact dimensions of the black scarab worked into its substance."


 * Type 1

Here's the tally
 * Type 1: 2 counts
 * Type 2: 0-1
 * Type 3: 0-1
 * Type 4: 2
 * Type 5: 2
 * Type 6: 0-1
 * Type 7: 1-2

The main quote at hand is obviously not type 4, type 5 is redundant given the context, and I don't think it's type 6 because it has a literal meaning. That brings it down to type 1, 2, or 3. The one quote. for the quote that might be type 2 (The Dimensional-Inhibitor one), I listed that it might be type 7. And frankly it wouldn't make sense for type 2 either. That leaves type 1 and 3. Popularly it is assumed to mean type 3 (Because we will look for any reference of the word "dimension"), but aside from the fact that dimension referring to size has been used the most solidly in this story, I think it actually makes more sense to mean type 1 given basic grammar. Refer to the actual quote; it says "form and dimensions."

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dimension

"the quality of spatial extension : MAGNITUDE, SIZE

Synonyms: Noun
 * bulk, extent, magnitude, measure, measurement, proportion, size"

- Merriam-Webster Dictionary

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/form

"The shape and structure of something as distinguished from its material

Synonyms: Noun
 * cast, configuration, conformation, fashion, figure, geometry, shape"

- Merriam-Webster Dictionary

So dimension and form refers to "size" and "shape" respectively, and the phrase "form and dimensions" and "dimensions and form" is actually used in such a context repeatedly, such as here, here, here, here, here, and here. There are probably more sources or examples where Form and Dimension is used to fancifully describe Size and Shape, but here are just a few. Never have I seen "dimension" when conjuncted with "form" to mean spatial-temporal dimension. In-text, spatio-temporal dimension is used only once in the story, if at all, while it referring to size has been used the most consistently in A Thousand Sons. This is backed up by other quotes.

"Distance was physically meaningless in the warp, but his brain could not cope with a dimensionless state, no matter his training. It was impossible to shape thoughts without a sense of up and down, near and far, in and out."

- All Must End

Note how it connects a dimensionless state with the meaninglessness of distance. This implies the lack of dimensionality is due to the lack of distance or size within the warp, except what can be imposed. Dimensionality means size and distance here, to argue otherwise would be borderline-headcanon given how "form and dimension" is used in almost all other contexts and ehe fact that dimension referring to size was already most commonly intended in A Thousand Sons as a used word. Dimensionality just comes along for the ride, which isn’t as impressive anyways because dimensionality is inherently less complex in the Warp:

"This is not the work of the warp. The geometries of the warp defy explanation of any kind. If anything, these dimensions here exhibit a greater complexity."

- Crusaders of Dorn

And again, the notion of the Warp being dimensionless seems less to do with transcendence, moreso a lack of the concepts in the first place:

""The Warp has no physical dimensions and the Realm of Chaos is without limits or true geography.""

As per Lexicanum:

"Warpspace is without form and the laws of time and space do not apply there, for both size and time are simultaneously infinite and irrelevant within The Warp."

This allows, should one impose it, the Warp to have an arbitrary number of dimensions:

"No! Surely this could not be right! They were sinking. The warp was getting denser, harder to peer through. Many navigators had learned the trick of seeing in more than three dimensions, of being able to understand shapes and labyrinths in four, five, even six dimensions, but this was different. A writhing maze stretched all around them, but it was a maze in a hundred dimensions at least. It was impossible for any human mind to unravel it."

- Eye of Terror

The Superficial Warp, therefore is Low 11-C to High 1-B, as it is a blank slate that has no inherent meaning to give to dimensions at first until one gives it. It is any tier one wants under the framework of science and physics, and it can be all or nothing at once due to its inconsistent nature.

‘There are layers,’ said Veil, impatiently. ‘Yes, there is stratum aetheris, the shallow ways. There is stratum profundis, the greater arteries, plunging deeper. There is stratum obscurus, the root of the terror. How does this help you? No living man can navigate the deep ways. Even he could not.’

"Alternatively, this tier can also be assigned to characters who transcend High 1-B structures when no further context regarding the nature or such transcendence is given."

- Tiering System

Stratum Aetheris/The Aether/Surface Warp: Low 11-C to High 1-B Stratum Profundus/The Seethe/The Deep Warp: Low 1-A Another level of Low 1-A

https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1442368806639.pdf

This is not the work of the warp. The geometries of the warp defy explanation of any kind. If anything, these dimensions here exhibit a greater complexity. ~Crusaders of Dorn

“In years past, I could travel the Great Ocean and open my eyes to a world of potential futures,” explained Ahriman. “To do that is no great trick, even mortals can do it. But to read those currents and sort meaning and truth from the chaos is a skill beyond all but the most gifted of seers.” “Will I be able read it?” “No,” said Ahriman, “not without decades of training by the Corvidae. To read the multidimensional patterns of the Great Ocean and lift meaning from the meaningless requires two modalities of thought. Firstly, the rapid, accurate and efficient movement of thought from concept to concept, whereby all ideas become one; and secondly, the halting of thought altogether, were one idea is reduced to nothing. I have an eidetic memory, a mind crafted by the greatest technologists of the forgotten ages that allows me to do this. You do not.” “Then what can I do?” “First you must learn how to shield your consciousness from danger,” said Ahriman, rising to his feet. “When you have accomplished that, then we will see what you can do.”

https://thetrove.net/Books/Warhammer/40000/Rogue%20Trader/Rulebooks/Rogue%20Trader%20-%20Core%20Rulebook%20%28updated%20with%201.4%20errata%29.pdf

"Falling down a light-filled tunnel. Rushing motion, sickening vertigo. The sense of being drawn out of a chain a molecule thick. Connection was always difficult, but this...

This felt like it was stretching him past the breaking point.

Then, like taut elastic, he snapped back.

Vertigo, again. Motion blur, quickly followed by nausea. He fought it, knowing it wasn't real. Inner ear balance that wasn't his. A centre of gravity altered. Someone else's body.

New sensations, all unpleasant.

The nausea diminished. The sense of dislocation passed. Light and three-dimensional space unfolded. Dimensions had meaning, again. The vectors of X, Y, and Z restored."

- Zero Day Exploit, part of Forges of Mars

This quote has been claimed to show the concepts of dimensionality was meaningless in the Warp. This is wrong. This quote was actually dealing with a noospheric connection, which is unrelated to the Warp for the most part.

"‘You had us build the device for this chamber,’ said Dalia.

‘I did,’ confirmed Zeth.

‘So what is it?’ asked Mellicin, looking up at the multitude of psykers staring down at them with blindfolded eyes.

‘It is the Akashic reader,’ said Zeth. ‘It is the device I have devoted my life to constructing. With its power, I shall free the galaxy of the shackles that bind us to dogma, repetition and blind devotion to tradition.’

‘How will it do that?’ asked Dalia.

Zeth approached Dalia and placed her gloved hands upon her shoulders.

‘Laszlo’s Skitarii easily overcame the tribesmen, and the secrets he discovered beneath the sands… so many remnants of times long forgotten and technologies thought lost forever. Secrets of energy transference, atomic restructuring, chemical engineering and, most importantly, the evolution of human cognition and communication through the noosphere.’

‘The noosphere?’ interrupted Dalia. ‘Is that what I saw between you and Rho-mu 31?’

Zeth nodded. ‘Indeed it was, Dalia. To those noospherically modified, information and communication are one and the same, a form of collective consciousness that emerges from the interaction of human minds and where knowledge becomes visible in shoals of light.’

‘So why can I see it?’ asked Dalia. ‘I haven’t been… modified.’

‘No,’ agreed Zeth. ‘You have not, but your connection to the aether renders you sensitive to such things, and as you develop your abilities, you will see more and more of the information that surrounds you.’

‘The aether?’ said Caxton. ‘That sounds dangerous.’

‘To the untutored mind, it can be,’ said Zeth, moving to stand beside the golden throne. ‘It is a realm of thought and emotion that exists… outside of the physical realm. But with the proper development, your gift will allow us to reach further into the realms of knowledge than ever before. We will be able to read the Akashic records, a repository of information imprinted on the very fabric of the universe – a wellspring of every thought, action and deed that has ever existed or ever will exist. It is what allowed the ancient cultures of Old Earth to build their impossible monuments and learn of things forgotten by later generations.’

Dalia felt her heart race at the thought of learning such things. The flow of information that had come to her station in the Hall of Transcriptions now seemed a paltry thing next to the prospect of being able to know every scrap of knowledge the universe contained. She had the feeling that Zeth wasn’t telling them everything about the aether, but her desire for knowledge outweighed any thoughts of the danger.

‘This device,’ said Dalia, standing before the man on the throne. ‘It’s meant to tap into this… aether and read information?’

‘That is exactly its purpose,’ agreed Zeth."

- Mechanicum, pg(s) 104-105

He bypassed the second chamber, where half a dozen data-miners were hardwired into the noospheric network on single-use readers with scrubbed ident-codes. They parsed the enormous volume of data routed through the Sinus Sabeus quadrangle, alert for any indication that what they were doing, and what they were about to do, had been detected. The final two spaces were supposed to be identical, but could not have been more different. These were where the real work would be done. The first of them, the space he’d set aside for himself, was clean to the point of spartan. An iron-framed cot-bed was pushed over to the far corner, and a grav-couch he’d stripped from an Aquila sat in the room’s centre. Beside it was a blocky console of polished bronze, an inload cogitator equipped with myriad unsanctioned black upgrades. The sort of internal modifications that got a junior adept into all kinds of trouble. The machine was waiting for him, but he wasn’t ready for it.

‘I work with the craft of Hephaestus and the speed of Hermes,’ said Simocatta with an elaborate wave of hand, like a nobleman’s salute to his subjects. ‘What does that mean?’ ‘It means the link is established and the polymorphic is wearing away Adept Duqu’s defences as we speak.’ ‘It’s already exloading?’ ‘My dear Hydraq, you didn’t pay me to craft slow code, now did you?’ ‘Damn it, Simocatta,’ snapped Hydraq. ‘Start with that!’ Simocatta laughed as Hydraq ran to his own chamber. Aurora was waiting for him. She’d already known what Simocatta was going to say. ‘Your heart rate’s high,’ she said, as if she could see it. For all Hydraq knew, perhaps she could. He nodded and took a moment to compose himself, controlling his breathing and forcing his heart-rate lower. He eased himself into the Aquila’s grav-couch. It moulded to his body like a second skin, and he let himself sink into its embrace. He felt his body relax. Now that the hunt was on, all the tension jangling along his nerves vanished. This was what he was born to do and his confidence calmed him. ‘Better,’ said Aurora, unsnapping two lengths of copper cabling from his cogitator terminal. ‘You’re sure about this?’ ‘No,’ he said. ‘But if we pull this off…’ Aurora shrugged. ‘Can we trust Enaric?’ ‘Of course not,’ he answered. ‘That’s why I have you.’ ‘So you do.’ Closing his eyes, he said, ‘I am what I bring in,’ and took the cables from Aurora’s porcelain-smooth fingertips. He slotted the jacks home in the sockets drilled just behind both ears. ‘Only that and nothing more.’ ‘You say that every time,’ said Aurora. ‘You say that every time,’ he said, running his hand over the surface of his cogitator. ‘It helps me deal with the Red Static. Listen, don’t underestimate the importance of ritual.’ ‘I’m on Mars, how could I forget?’ she said as his hand slid into the palm-shaped depression of the cogitator’s upper surface. The activator rune was warm beneath his skin. He let out a breath, feeling the thrumming power of the machine beneath his hand. The potential it represented. ‘Good hunting,’ said Aurora, bending to kiss his forehead. ‘That helps too.’ ‘Then this will go smoothly?’ ‘Smooth as glass,’ he promised, and pressed the activator rune.

"‘You had us build the device for this chamber,’ said Dalia.

‘I did,’ confirmed Zeth.

‘So what is it?’ asked Mellicin, looking up at the multitude of psykers staring down at them with blindfolded eyes.

‘It is the Akashic reader,’ said Zeth. ‘It is the device I have devoted my life to constructing. With its power, I shall free the galaxy of the shackles that bind us to dogma, repetition and blind devotion to tradition.’

‘How will it do that?’ asked Dalia.

Zeth approached Dalia and placed her gloved hands upon her shoulders.

‘Laszlo’s Skitarii easily overcame the tribesmen, and the secrets he discovered beneath the sands… so many remnants of times long forgotten and technologies thought lost forever. Secrets of energy transference, atomic restructuring, chemical engineering and, most importantly, the evolution of human cognition and communication through the noosphere.’

‘The noosphere?’ interrupted Dalia. ‘Is that what I saw between you and Rho-mu 31?’

Zeth nodded. ‘Indeed it was, Dalia. To those noospherically modified, information and communication are one and the same, a form of collective consciousness that emerges from the interaction of human minds and where knowledge becomes visible in shoals of light.’

‘So why can I see it?’ asked Dalia. ‘I haven’t been… modified.’

‘No,’ agreed Zeth. ‘You have not, but your connection to the aether renders you sensitive to such things, and as you develop your abilities, you will see more and more of the information that surrounds you.’

‘The aether?’ said Caxton. ‘That sounds dangerous.’

‘To the untutored mind, it can be,’ said Zeth, moving to stand beside the golden throne. ‘It is a realm of thought and emotion that exists… outside of the physical realm. But with the proper development, your gift will allow us to reach further into the realms of knowledge than ever before. We will be able to read the Akashic records, a repository of information imprinted on the very fabric of the universe – a wellspring of every thought, action and deed that has ever existed or ever will exist. It is what allowed the ancient cultures of Old Earth to build their impossible monuments and learn of things forgotten by later generations.’

Dalia felt her heart race at the thought of learning such things. The flow of information that had come to her station in the Hall of Transcriptions now seemed a paltry thing next to the prospect of being able to know every scrap of knowledge the universe contained. She had the feeling that Zeth wasn’t telling them everything about the aether, but her desire for knowledge outweighed any thoughts of the danger.

‘This device,’ said Dalia, standing before the man on the throne. ‘It’s meant to tap into this… aether and read information?’

‘That is exactly its purpose,’ agreed Zeth."

- Mechanicum, pg(s) 104-105

In it’s full context, the Noosphere simply transfer the mind through photonic shoals of light-energy

"A pair of muscled servitors lifted the unconscious empath from his gurney and gently sat him upon the padded seat of the newly-installed theta-wave enhancer. Dalia and Mellicin watched as Zeth bent to her ministrations on the man, plugging him into the device with eager, nimble fingers. Barely visible scads of light flickered in the noosphere above the adept’s head, and Dalia wondered what manner of information was arriving in Zeth’s skull and from where.

She returned her attention to the empath, watching as his eyelids fluttered and his consciousness began rising to the surface of his mind now that he was free of the drugs keeping him quiescent. In the time they had been working on the device, the empath had lost weight, and his once healthy physique now resembled the figures encapsulated in the coffers of the dome’s walls.

Working beneath their sightless eyes it was easy to forget the psykers were human beings, albeit dangerous humans with powers beyond those of ordinary mortals. With the first full test of the enhanced Akashic reader upon them, Dalia felt an unexpected surge of protectiveness towards their silent audience.

‘Will this hurt them?’ asked Dalia, pointing towards the thousands of men and women above.

‘The experience will be draining for them I expect,’ said Zeth without looking up from her labours. ‘Some may not live.’"

- Mechanicum, pg(s) 126-127


 * https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/161056
 * https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/264676/what-is-the-meaning-of-the-size-of-a-particle-in-qft/274532#274532

Here are some scientific explanations of what I mean. Photons are, to put it simply, spatially wonky and “dimensionless” in nature, which means having your consciousness be transferred through something analogous to photon propagation would basically be going through a “dimensionless” state. Ergo this has nothing to do with the warp, aside for the inherent connection between the Warp and Information allowing Psykers to physically see information propagation, but otherwise it still seems to propagate through Realspace simply as a photonic medium.

The Nature of the Chaos Gods
"As a Chaos God gathers such energy, it expands in power, and its influence and territory within the warp grows. As extensions of the gods, the appearances of these domains are formed upon the same emotions that created their masters: Khorne’s realm is founded on anger and bloodletting; Tzeentch’s lands are scintillating constructs of pure magic; Nurgle’s territory is a haven of death and regeneration, and Slaanesh’s dominion is a paradise of damning temptations. Though realm and god are as one, the Chaos Gods each have a form that embodies their personalities and dwells at the very heart of their territories. Wreathed in unearthly power, the Chaos Gods watch over their realms, seeking any disturbances in the pattern of the warp that signal intrusion or opportunity."

- Codex: Chaos Daemons (8th ed.), pg. 7

Notice this says nothing about the conceptual forms of the chaos gods being transcendent in any sense, rather its conceptuality is divided between a physical body and its realm. This implies rather than the conceptual chaos gods are greater than their realm plus body, but rather conceptual chaos gods are equal their realm plus body.