Forum:Wikia's New Style

Discussion
Please discuss Wikia's New Style here!


 * I'm not impressed with ads pushing the main article image down to the next page in the example. I can hardly think of anything more likely to drive away casual viewers. Yrfeloran 01:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know what to say about the new style design that I haven't already said to those who have asked me. I don't think it is visually appealing at all; I don't think that adding ads to the article body is the right way to go at all; I don't feel that the new main page utilizes the space provided like the current/original Monaco design manages to do effectively; I don't feel that this new "revamped" Moncao design is necessary at all. I know I warned those among the Staff and Com-Team I've spoken with that this, or something similar, may happen on Wookieepedia with drastic changes like this. Anyways, regardless of my personal opinions (which I know are shared among every user/admin I've spoken with), I've been asked by others to link this Wookieepedia forum here, since it's a direct result of the new style rollout → Forum:Finding alternative hosting. Greyman ( Talk ) 02:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikia's New Style? "Times Square" would be a more appropriate title. I think it looks terrible, the way it disrupts the article's layout&mdash;why not have a 250-pixel-high bar of ads across the top of each article page? There are many different approaches that could be taken in order to prevent such a disruptive effect on aesthetic quality. The users of the assorted wikis have spent millions upon millions of hours designing thousands upon thousands of articles to achieve a superior, more professional appearance to what we get stuck with on sites such as Wikipedia. This new appearance isn't professional in the least. I wouldn't be surprised if the site actually would begin to see a decrease in traffic, because I for one can't stand having to hunt through advertisements to find content on a website.
 * I've had it passed along to me that the Staff's opinion of users leaving over this nonsense goes a little something like it's unfortunate that those users might leave, but new users are always willing to step up and help out. Really? To the extent that I and my fellow Wookieepedia administrators and established users do? I could be paid for the time and effort I put into building these wikis, but I don't mind it being pro bono at all&mdash;it's a fulfilling hobby. Correction: it has been a fulfilling hobby, but apparently our kind benefactors have decided that the opinions of those who have done so damned much to help them make a living don't count for anything. Who made this decision? One person? Three? I don't see why something a little less autocratic and a bit more community-oriented (this is supposedly a community-oriented website) could have taken place before this was shoved down our throats. Thanks a lot, Wikia. Graestan ( Talk ) 02:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If you are correct in your statement of opinion, perhaps Wikia are have neglected to consider that not only are the people running the sites most likely to be the most experienced wiki editors available in their communities, they also have far more influence with those in the topic area than Wikia does. I know where my traffic comes from, and who in the fandom links to Wikia. Should we move, I can ask them to link elsewhere, and they will most likely do so. Perhaps Wikia feels safe from the proportion of traffic they derive from Google, but we will see how long the traffic lasts without key links from high-relevance sites. --GreenReaper(talk) 05:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * In essence, when you strip away all the marketing-speak, Wikia has just come right out and told us that they do not care what we think about how our content should be laid out. Literally thousands of man-hours have been volunteered to make our articles look exactly the way they do now, and suddenly Wikia wants to wedge a pile of garbage into the content we created for them. This is, to put it politely, evil. This will cause a mass exodus, and some of our best contributors will be at the head of the line. I've already begun comparing hosting providers and I will gladly donate my own resources to make sure Wookieepedia never suffers this indignity. -- Darth Culator  (Talk) 03:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, in my honest opinion, I just think the new design with ads in the content area (either/both a banner right under the "edit this page", etc. and/or the box which basically cuts the width for that section in half and could potentially break the desired format in one way or another) sucks and fails, miserably. One may think that this sounds bad... and he/she would be right! If I were some other user visiting some other website, it is highly likely for me to quite quickly navigate away from a page that looks like this or something that breaks into this.


 * For users without adblock, the page, depending on how the ads load, could be so obstructed and so aesthetically unpleasing and unappealing that the visitor, who came to seek content, leaves immediately. For users with adblock or those who get adblock to fix the appearance issue, they won't see any ads so Wikia won't be getting any clicks. For some long time contributing communities, they could get so outraged by this new change and possibly even take measures that would not favor Wikia economically. On the bright side, the big shots would be motivated into editing more and creating more content due to the shortage of the editors and contributors who generally spend hours making Wikia look good for free.


 * I know there is a need to gain revenue, but this change is already upsetting a decent amount of users, and if the contributors leave, the wiki won't have the content that attract visitors, which would effectively result in less popularity. But more importantly, it would result in less $$$, which would most certainly sadden and depress those marketing/planning people who devised this new setup in the first place. GHe (Talk) 03:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ads? In the middle of articles?!  Big, ugly banner ads that serve nothing than to be a nasty pus-filled stye on what was a pristine article?!!  And for whatever reason, some coorporate fatcat thinks this is a good idea?!!?  Coming from the average user/forumgoer, I can tell you one thing's for certain and that is the average user does NOT give a Rodian's antennae about ads.  They don't click on 'em.  Ads are an eyesore, plain and simple.  Putting the ads within the page contents will only serve to drive away viewers and contributors who hate having their hard work dissected with some glaring obnoxious ad for something that's totally unrelated to the content of the article.  That's like slapping a kitschy bumper sticker across an Alex Ross original.  That's something you just don't do.  This "new style" will only serve to aggrivate and alienate and effectively destroy the integrity of the community.  In short, bisecting articles with ads has gotta be the most ridiculously idiotic marketing descision I have ever heard, ever.  Why don't they just shoot themselves in the foot, it'd acheive the same effect.  Trak Nar 04:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Seriously. Per everyone above. I've really enjoyed my time here on wikis, but do you expect me (or anyone else) to go for this rubbish? I know that, because of your immense increase in size, you'll need more $$$. But there are better ways than this. -- Joe Butler (Obi Maul12)  (Chow) 04:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * And one of those ways on generating revenue is definetly not gonna be ads. Why?  They're just ugly, unnecessary, distracting, and the biggest deterrant. I used to administrate a forum that started putting ads within the forum content, and within seeing just one ad, activity on the forum dropped drastically. No one wanted to post or read. And the ads kept crashing my browser, so I couldn't perform my modly duties, either. I took to donating a measely amount of money from my already-puny budget just to get rid of the ads! Eventually, everyone got pissed off at the head admin (who put in the ads and other annoying changes) and the forum died. If Wikia decides to do the same to the article content, then the same or a very similar fate will befall them in which the whole community will just go belly-up. No one likes ads. And ads don't even add that much revenue to begin with. Most ads generate a few cents per click, and if no one clicks, there isn't any revenue. If they wanna make some cash, they should have a readily-available "Donate" option and offer perks to paid user accounts/donators. If perks are offered, people will donate. Hell, people will donate if the only perk is no ads! Donations will create more revenue for the site than ads will, too. The Honour System works well on the internet; if the option to donate is readily available, people will donate.   Trak Nar  Ramble on 05:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Internet Rule 1: A person with enough web experience to know what a wiki is would NEVER click on a add. SO, why screw over all your wikis for something that wont work? Also, what BS is it that monoco is a more popular skin...? I HATE the non wikia hosted wiki of my favorite site, but I doubt I would stick around much after this, especially since said site became hosted by wikia against the wishes of most of the userbase.--Alari06:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * What a crock of shit. After the various communities had complained for months about the swap from MonoBook to Quartz, Wikia finally made a step in the right direction with Monaco. Then you go and ruin it with this. I browse thousands of individual pages every week, keeping hundreds of wikis clean and free of vandalism and spam, all for free, ironically earning Wikia money while doing so. I certainly won't be using Monaco to be slapped in the face by this crap. Luckily, I'm a user who has a choice. I guess it's just unfortunate for the anonymous users who generate 90% of page views. -- Manticore   (talk)  07:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * On our wiki, since a month ago, we have ads inside article content for non-logged in users only, if you want to see how it looks: w:c:es.pokemon:Experto, w:c:es.pokemon:Meowth... The Top-right ad box push down all infoboxes, so small articles look crappy: w:c:es.pokemon:Danza_lluvia. This also affects images, where the common-style is to put them in the right side. Our wiki still uses Monobook, and the only point to switch to Monaco was that there was only a banner ad at the top, so user can scroll down to hide the ads. At the moment, we have text-only ads. In the article content it could be acceptable. But wikia wants to put animated ads: Distracting movement in the ads will be kept to a minimum . That inside thearticle content is not acceptable.
 * About revenue, the major part of websites I visit has one google ad box, or one banner of ads. But wikia wants three... With the amount of articles and visits Wikia has, seems excessive amount of ads. --Ciencia Al Poder (talk) -WikiDex 08:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Defined NO. :). The "Wikia Spotlight" already craps up my browser badly enough- Imagine if you had to put up with Ads that lag your browser appearing in the centre of the page? Luckily, Admins can choose the default skin. As well as this, GuildWiki and any other sites under the BY-NC-SA would consider this a license breach. I can tolerate the google ads in the side bar as they hopefully cover operating expenses, more or less, but delivering ads like the commercial websites do deserves leagl scrutiny. 09:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a note about the default skin: from Forum:Default skin?!:


 * So as far as I can understand, for the majority of wikis, the only choices will be between the variations of monaco (this probably applies quite well to the big wikis since Wikia wants to make more money off them through the new skin and its ad positioning). GHe (Talk) 15:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, the ad is right where the infobox goes. You can't expect to look at an infobox and see a huge google ad. That's just wrong. -- Freakatone Talk
 * They're right, here. I'd say a very heavy majority of wikis use infoboxes, and your are purposefully moving ads into a space that will destroy the layouts of many wikis. This new format for ads is infinitely more disruptive than an ad on the top of the wiki. –Entrea Sumatae 16:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What kind of evidence is there for the assertion that changing to Monaco increases traffic? That sounds like a pretty iffy correlation-implies-causation link to me. Also, I don't really know if that says anything about the new, butch- err, "improved" Monaco. Silvermink 19:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikia needs to reconsider its approach
This sort of action suggests Wikia cares little for us as customers, just numbers - but acting like a dot-com will not work; this isn't 2000, and there isn't a fat payout just around the corner.

Let me elaborate on a few points which may not be clear:
 * Wikia provides a service to us, its users, at a given cost. Wikia is mistaken (in most cases) when it uses the possessive term - "our wikis". They are the wikis it hosts for us, the user communities that create and maintain them. The hosting is a service that costs no money only because it is ad-supported and matched by our editorial and promotional services. We are both customers of one another.
 * The extra ads and restrictions are a degradation of service beyond an acceptable point. We are not willing to accept this level of service, even for free. We would rather pay to go elsewhere.
 * Wikia is not dealing from a position of strength. Wikia needs us, because it cannot afford the staff to edit the wikis itself, and because there is a limited pool of competent editors in the world. We do not need Wikia, because we can take our freely-licensed content and go elsewhere. There are switching costs but they are manageable. In many cases, funding will not be an issue - the value of the content is self-evident, and many of the wikis which have been most successful have well-off fans who would sponsor them for recognition's sake alone.
 * The wiki founders and administrators own the service mark in their work, not Wikia. Wikia has held itself out as a host and supporter to wiki communities - but it is not truly their creator. Instead, the people most involved in generating content and promoting and advertising the service to their target communities are. If your web host claimed it owned that name which you had spent your own time establishing, would you not find this idea amusing? It may be less so if the founders decide to leave Wikia, taking their good names with them, and deny them to Wikia.
 * Wikia has made attempts to subvert this by quietly buying up relevant domain names. This may not avail them, however, as it is the "use in commerce" that matters - and active promotion of the mark concerned to the relevant target market counts. I imagine most founders have taken actions to promote their work to others. Indeed, the practice of purchasing but not using domains would seem to be closer to domain squatting than anything else.

What can be done to solve this? --GreenReaper(talk) 10:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikia needs to understand it is providing a service, not a product - and that so are we. Are we valueless because we provide our services without charge? Let me turn that around - is Wikia of no value because it is free? No. The true value of a wiki is not found in its content, which anyone can duplicate, but its community. The services we provide to one another have value. Without Wikia, our sites have no host, and we must look elsewhere. Without us, the wikis are unmaintainable, and vulnerable to competition (not least from us). We are partners - so let's act like it.
 * Wikia needs to provide an acceptable level of service that meets its users' needs. Consider each wiki a service of its editors that we provide to our respective communities. We have our own "customers" to please. If the result is something so ad-filled that nobody would want to point to it, or contribute, we have failed; and so have you. If Wikia cannot or will not provide the level of service we require, we must switch to another service provider, resulting in a loss of ad revenue and a swift depreciation of Wikia's intangible assets.
 * Wikia needs to figure out how to make money from its services. The obvious way to do this is not to keep piling on the ads, but to charge the communities directly for the services it renders. This is by no means impossible, yet it seems Wikia has not seriously tried it. If you can give a specific value to your ads over a given period, why not offer some kind of donation gauge set to this value which provides no-ad, multi-skin support until it is empty? Other wikis manage to accumulate funds; there is no reason it cannot work here too, unless you fear your costs are too high. And if they are . . . well, perhaps you are in the wrong business. (But do not expect us to stick around while you try to get out of it.)

Wikia
Wikia, please do not listen to advertisers Pierlot McCrooke 15:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

A response
This change is a huge deal. It's not something that we're taking lightly at all. What you're seeing right now is the result of months of conversations, tests and compromises. We looked at a lot of different options, including most of the ones that people are asking about. You're seeing the end result of that long process -- the best balance that we've been able to come up with so far.

We have to change things in order to make Wikia financially stable. It would be great if we could host wikis with no advertising at all, or just have Google ads running in the footer. Unfortunately, Google ads in the footer pay pennies a click, and nobody clicks. We need to be able to attract real advertisers, who pay for impressions rather than clicks.

Impressions work on a pageview basis -- the advertiser will pay for people to look at the ad, whether they click or not. But they won't pay for impressions if the ad is hidden at the bottom of the page, because they don't know whether people are scrolling down to look at the ad. The ad needs to be visible on the screen when people first come to the page, so the advertisers know that they're paying for real impressions.

So how do you design a wiki page that has a 300x250 box at the top of the screen? Either you put it in the header, which pushes the entire content area down, or you put it in the sidebar so that it squishes the content area over... or you put it in the article area, and allow the content to wrap around it.

We tried out all three versions, and I think putting the box into the article actually creates the least disruption. A huge header would make the content disappear to the bottom. A huge sidebar would create a big blank area on the left side of the screen as you scroll down. Having the box at the top right means that the only space that's being used for the ad is the 300x250 box itself.

So what happens on Tuesday is basically a big test. Once things go live on Tuesday, there are a few things that we're going to be looking at very closely:


 * whether the system actually works the way we expect it to, and it doesn't break page designs


 * the actual impact on ad sales and click-through rates


 * the community reaction -- how people feel when the changes are actually live on the site


 * the overall impact on readers and contributors, which we can evaluate by looking at the stats on pageviews, edits and active editors.

There are a couple of possible predictions that people could make. One prediction is that the change won't make any difference to people at all -- that it's just exchanging one ad shape for another, and people will adapt their designs around the new format. Another prediction is that the change will drive people away, that every wiki will lose their core contributors, and that all of the wikis will die within a week.

But those are the extreme cases, and it's not likely that either of those will happen. It won't be a dream or a nightmare. Some people will hate it, some people will like it better, and some people won't care. We can't know for sure what's going to happen until we try it out.

Once we turn it on, then we can start evaluating the impact, and making changes. The parts of this that work well will stay; the parts that are completely broken will have to change. One version of "completely broken" is that people read and contribute less. Right now, everything is theoretical. It's easy to say "this will be fine" or "this will drive every user away". We have to try it out and see what actually happens.

I know how important everybody's wiki is, and how connected you feel to your wiki. I started Muppet Wiki in 2005, and I ended up working for Wikia because I figured out that I love working on wikis more than anything else in the world. There are a lot of wikis on Wikia that I'm tight with now, but Muppet Wiki is my home -- that's the community where I've put in hours of my own time every day, every week, for two and a half years. When I've felt like that community is threatened, I've fought like a tiger for it.

So I'm paying a lot of attention to how this plays out. If it really hurts the wikis, we'll make changes. We just need to see the impact in order to know what's true and what's hypothetical. -- Danny (talk ) 16:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "But those are the extreme cases, and it's not likely that either of those will happen." No, it is VERY likely as has been voiced many times already.--Alari20:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say it's "VERY likely", but it's more likely than not that some--possibly many--users will be driven away by this, based on the response from this forum and others. -- Joe Butler (Obi Maul12)  (Chow) 21:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

A reply

 * Fuck up! Pierlot McCrooke 19:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Please can I ask that everyone try not to make replies like that? I understand that people are worried and angry at this point, but this is probably the least helpful way to show us that.  We want to hear from you, we don't want to be abused and insulted.  Thanks -- sannse (talk) 19:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Frankly, the horrible decisions wikia staff has been making time after time leaves them wide open to abuse and insults.Alari20:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

No Way!
I like the way it is now! Now I have to get used to it and I just know how to get around this one because it's easy and cool. Keep it the same! :( --Ginny22 17:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

screw your advertisers. you're gonna drive users away. stop being tools. 162.84.143.170 19:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Then i suppose you wont complain the day Wikia would have to close ?
 * But dont think i like the change. If i had lots of money i would move my wikis to a pro hosting like some are saying. I dont have the kind of money for a wiki hosting that's why i had to ask Wikia to be kind enough to create two french wikis...
 * I will never say i support add in the middle of the page. But if it is necessairy to save Wikia...
 * Every month i buy a bus (and subway) card here in Montréal, and since a few years now, the transport compagnie began producing bus monthly pass card with add on them. One of my friend always say that it's ugly and unecessairy but it think he's wrong. The bus card would surely cost a lot more if it had no add on them. Plus, the transport compagnie need more money because our subway is very old and it need to be replaced before it break. Or at least it's what they are saying...
 * Anyway, i'm currently writing a thing about this on fr.guildwars. — TulipVorlax 20:03, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The day wikia dies is the day guildwiki can get a better legally acquired host, I wont complain.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 20:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Comparison
Here's a comparison between the same page on current Monaco and the new version of Monaco.

The right side is pushed down about 135 pixels... from the middle of Fozzie's mouth down. The left side moves up to reveal seven more lines of text, adding about 75 words to what you can see on the page.

It's true that New Monaco reduces the importance of right-floated infoboxes. At the same time, it raises the importance of the main body of text. One of the big complaints when Monaco was launched was that it pushed down the content, and made it less important than the ad. I think the new version addresses that concern pretty well. -- Danny (talk ) 19:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That's addressing the wrong issue, IMHO. The Fozzie Bear article you tout as your "example" is by far the exception that will prove the foolishness of this adventure; the article itself is quite large. What about small articles and stubs? Have you worked out how this will affect them? What about articles with infoboxes but no images? People will think that the image for Cal Omas is a box of Oreos with a creme-and-cookie explosion behind it. Come on, let's think this out some before we make rash choices.-- 20:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * This is all wrong! We should just replace the whole page with one huge add. That'd be totally sweet, and think of all the money it'd make! I can't wait to get back to Wookieepedia Buy POPTARTSTM-brand POPTARTSTM!! Mmmm, Poptarts!(R) --66.31.174.231 21:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If you were somehow trying to be funny, I don't think it worked. -- Joe Butler (Obi Maul12)  (Chow) 21:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)