Forum:The future of Central

Hi All,

We've been pondering how this wiki could be better used, and how we can make it more effective. One part of this is the new multi-wiki search that Kyle mentioned in his Fall update. This should mean that anyone searching on Central is directed to the best wikis for their search term, rather than to the "blue-box" directory pages here and then to the wiki they want. This will be live on Central tomorrow, although it will need further refinement of the search results over the coming weeks.

This makes the blue box pages here obsolete, especially now that they are so much harder to keep in order with automatic wiki creation! Which presents another question: what should Central be? Wikia needs more of a community area offering help and support to everyone. What we propose is to tidy up Central, remove all old and obsolete pages, and create a solid community hub that draws people to it.

So, we would like to get some feedback from regular users of Central. What are your ideas for this wiki? What do you need here and what do you think new editors on Central will want here? We can't promise to use all ideas, but would love to hear what you think!

Thanks all -- sannse (talk) 01:54, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * I definitely see a big potential for making this a large help and support community. I said in Kyle's blog post (I think that's where it was) that we either need to cut back on just telling people "Go to Special:Contact" or we have to be a lot friendlier while doing so. I see some users saying that on multiple talk pages, and it just strikes me as people brushing off people's need for help. Granted I don't think that's the intention, but I think a lot of people may get the wrong idea about it because of how that's phrased. Some people just don't want to use Special:Contact either. Honestly, I've always gotten faster help through talk pages than Special:Contact. The only time I'd use that is if it was the weekend. Having people tell me to use Special:Contact just gets a tad bit annoying. That's my biggest pet peeve around here. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 03:09, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

When you say "searching on Central" do you mean just the wikia.com homepage, or the sidebar and Special:Search as well? The blue box pages being obsolete, doesn't mean they will be deleted or not updated when a new wiki is created, does it? --Sxerks 03:46, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Immediate thoughts. 1, the main page should be reviewed more often. The Twilight wiki has been on it ALL YEAR LONG, and that kind of free press is unfair to all the other wikis here. Second, in terms of removing old and obsolete pages, I'd like to request that this entire forums archive remain untouched. -- LordTBT Talk! 05:49, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * When sannse says "searching on Central", I think she means all searches from Central, from the homepage and from the search bar. Personally, I seriously doubt any forum archives will be removed, but I think the 50,000 or so "blue box" pages may be removed. I hear Wikia is working on a new home page design - an update at last - but unfortunately, I don't think we'll be rid of Twilight.
 * Making Central a "community hub" is the idea that immediately comes to mind. This is already half of Central's function with its forums and all. Probably giving the forums a bit more precedence over the straight and narrow Special:Contact would help as well, as Brandon Rhea suggests.
 * When you say "tidy up", to what extent do you mean? Wjxhuang,  the 888th Avatar  {Talk} 07:03, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd then like to know what qualifies Twilight for over a year of time on Wikia's main page. -- LordTBT Talk! 18:02, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

do you mean just the wikia.com homepage, or the sidebar and Special:Search as well? Yes, the homepage searchbox on there now will properly tie into an actual search (which the sidebar already does), as will what ever ends up on the future homepage.

The homepage revamp is coming down the line (lots to consider), but one of the primary reasons for the revamp is to allow us to update its contents much easier/more often.

What do you want "tidy up" to mean? Thats the feedback we're looking for, from the people that are here often. --Uberfuzzy 09:36, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Personnally, my fav is directly on the forum section. I never go on wikia main page unless someone say there's something it need to see. — TulipVorlax 12:41, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * "Tidying up" I suppose for me means two things. Tidying up always includes basics like categorisation, deletion of obselete pages etc. for easier navigation and less bloat, but for me, it also means making the wiki more visually pleasing. I get the feeling that all of us sometimes treat Central purely as a technical resource, and in a lot of places it looks that way. There's a lot of inconsistency - compare this hub to this hub (animated gif and all) as an example. Cleaning up the look of a wiki is often overlooked as a priority, but I feel that impressions count, and this is particularly true of Central, the entry point of Wikia.
 * On that note, I'm pleased in a way for the demise of the blue box pages. They were always cumbersome, forever in need of an update, and got confusing when dozens of wikis on the same subject popped up in no particular order.
 * I never go on the Wikia main page either, and mainly because for me, it is totally useless. In fact, most frequent users don't. I'm not sure how healthy that is - most of that frequent user group do visit their home wiki's main page often (so much so that Special:MyHome was opposed in some quarters because it "replaced" the main page in some respects) - so I suppose a revamp which allows Wikia to update contents more often is a step in the right direction. Wjxhuang,  the 888th Avatar  {Talk} 13:20, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

There should be an easier way to allow users to ask questions, more like Wikianswers. Currently users have to visit the Forums, which some people might find hard to find or hard to use. I'm thinking of something like a build-in live support (no, not IRC, build-in). This should make it easier for people to find help, and allow them to get a quick response.

I also think Central should get a new skin. Current one is far too basic and static, not inviting users to ask.

Also, the Community Portal should be updated; this page is useful for new users. It should be a base-directory to all help pages and wikia-pages. A brand new, clear lay-out should do the trick. Users should (feel) invited to join, and build up a large community at central. Mark (Talk) • (Contribs) 18:07, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * najevi's vision for Central

See User_blog:Najevi/A_vision_for_w:c:central


 * Assumptions
 * central = w:c:central
 * blue box pages = pages like Sailing, Recipes, Code, etc.
 * tidy up = staff and/or users liberally using delete and then waiting maybe 15-30 days (for any discussion/objection) before pages are actually deleted
 * Wikia-wide search = w:c:central:Special:Search
 * Wiki-wide search = w:c: :Special:Search

-- najevi 21:52, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * A bit big for this page Najevi, let's give others room to comment too! :) But we will read it all -- sannse (talk) 20:57, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. However, the above assumptions are important to be verified (or corrected) at this forum thread. -- najevi 21:52, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * While a lot of najevi's ideas make a lot of sense, I disagree with the "blue box" page solution. That solution is based on the assumption that Wikia staff are usually the ones who update them, correct them etc. However, the blue box pages have always been editable, but are even then still ineffective. I believe the majority of wiki founders abandon their wikis after a fling at a few days' work. Why would any of those even bother to touch their blue box page on Central? If we told them about the need to update their blue box pages, why would any of them update them once they've effectively abandoned their wiki? What may work though, is that established wikis, that is, those that won't be abandoned any time soon with at least ten fairly frequent editors, could have their own "article" on Central, possible for promotion etc., which is a bit like the "tours", but actually based on Central. In general though, I would get rid of the blue box pages.
 * Merging Help with Central is an interesting idea, and I think it could work well. Then at least, all support questions will be centralised here, rather than spread here and on Help, which doesn't work too well.
 * Special:Contact really irks me. I'd much prefer that preference be given to Central forums. I don't believe for a minute that it is difficult to track a number of forums. We should have a system where Special:Contact is used only when the usage of the Central forums is impractical. After all, these wikis are meant to be open, transparent, and community-based. najevi has a good point when we are more satisfied having found an answer from the community rather than through a terrible email feature.
 * In answer to LordTBT, who obviously dislikes Twilight as much as I do - tough, this is what happens when a book and film series becomes ultra popular. :( Wjxhuang,  the 888th Avatar  {Talk} 22:55, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Has nothing to do with whether or not I like it. It has to do with free press from the primary hosting service for over a year. I like Iron Man and I'd raise the same issue if it was Iron Man, for example. Have rotating wikis, something else, but that one in particular has gotten its moment now. -- LordTBT Talk! 06:22, December 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * I was just testing the new search and I like it, but it needs some tweaking.
 * Searches should return the first result from each individual wiki and another search link right below that linked to see the other XX results from that wiki. That should also include the central wiki.
 * When I search for "User:Sxerks" or "User talk:Sxerks" I should get a list of wikis with created User or Talk pages.
 * The search should ignore the "Latest activity" box in the sidebar, it gives false results.
 * I don't think the blue box pages should be deleted(if that was the idea), unless there is some other idea to categorize and list new wiki manually automatically.
 * For the homepage, I think you should get rid of it and make the standard Main_page (with sidebar and all) the default location for wikia.com. That would give it a consistent feel and make the central wiki more relevant and accessible. With the current homepage new users don't even realize there are Forums, Staff blogs, help, bluebox pages, and Hubs here.
 * --Sxerks 03:14, December 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * Again, I personally don't see the point of keeping all of blue box pages. The new users will just search for the wikis and trawl through the results, and the regulars will already know the url's. There are plenty of pages where we "categorise" and "list" and "compare" wikis - those are the Hubs, and I suppose we could improve on their accuracy and usability, as well as increase their number. Trying to list new wikis manually simply wastes staff's and user's time that could be used on more exciting and community-focused projects. Wjxhuang,  the 888th Avatar  {Talk} 03:54, December 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, I didn't mean manually, I meant automatically like the CreateWiki_script does now. It creates those pages and if it's not going to be used how do we know what new wikis are being created.  This page would need more options to be a useful replacement.  The Hub pages here do need work, and I don't even know how much traffic the wiki-hubs get or if they are useful to people.  I've done quite a bit of listing and comparing wikis and it's useful to see new ones created and search for old ones(even if they are 1 page duds).--Sxerks 05:02, December 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * You have a point when you say you want to find new wikis. I think hubs have great potential, and in the long run, in counterpart with the new search feature, and a better Special:Newwikis, can and should make blue box pages redundant. The hubs should list wikis, should compare wikis, should promote wikis, and should in general arouse interest in Wikia's subject areas. At the moment, the hubs look a little scrappy and many of them need updating. Wjxhuang,  the 888th Avatar  {Talk} 05:15, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

I didn't even know that special page existed. — TulipVorlax 05:59, December 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * I just read over what I wrote at Blue box pages and w:c:central:Special:Search can coexist and re-read what Wjxhuang wrote above. I think we agree about more than we disagree here.
 * A replacement for bluebox pages should be explored but I do not believe that replacement is the new w:c:central:Special:Search. In the same fashion that we have some advocates for the RTE and others for the PlainTextEditor; so to, I think that not everyone is wired to browse Wikia in the same way. I would want to hear from the original architect of the current blue box pages (and hubs) to first understand the audience they were targeting. To jump on the bandwagon to have those pages aggressively deleted without first understanding a different audience might be a little "trigger happy".
 * One highly probable reason founders and adopters do not edit blue box pages is because they have no motivation to do so! Create the motivation and you will see the desired activity. In my blog I described one possible form of motivation.

 If you are not familiar with what a SMW Concept or in-line query is then suggested reading is Help:Semantic_search as well as the 5 related pages displayed in the SMW Manual TOC at the right. Specifically: Help:Concepts and Help:Inline queries. Either one of those would dovetail very nicely with the notion of one page per community wiki hosted at w:c:central to showcase that wiki community. If the authors of that page are shown how to annotate various information presented in that showcase page then a visitor to w:c:central:Special:Ask or another more user friendly form page can easily browse for varous dynamically created categories of wikis and then go visit the promotion page or take the guided tour or whatever.
 * Don't go looking for w:c:central:Special:Ask it does not exist because Semantic MediaWiki extension is not enabled at Central ... yet ! ...  :-)
 * Offtopic: There has been some ensuing talk about abandonded wikis in this thread. I think that is off-topic so I will only say this much - just as newborn child ought to have regular checkups in it's first few years so too should newly created wikis. The obvious difference being that young wikis that are not "measuring up" ought to be shut down and permanently removed. Anything more than that is really for a separate forum topic.
 * -- najevi 08:45, December 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, Semantic MediaWiki is powerful. Yes, it can really help on any wiki. You can tell any wiki regular that, and we will nod rapidly in agreement. Unfortunately though, it may be difficult, and unrealistic, to tell the majority of wiki founders that. The reality is that over nine out of ten wiki founders have never founded a wiki before, and probably have not have much wiki editing experience. Given that so many - maybe even half - have difficulty learning to sign a talk page, how realistic is it to teach them, effectively, how to annotate their pages here for Semantic? I'm just fearful that after a given amount of time, the onus will fall on a relatively small group of staff and regulars here to do all the annotating.
 * While I still think that the blue box pages should go, I've come to realise from this discussion that we cannot entirely replace them with the search system. I'll agree that we need a type of replacement for them. I think the best "type" of replacement of them is through the hubs. The hubs can be so much more. We have pretty general hubs at the moment, but we can clean those up and expand them much further. We can make hubs for much more specific topics - hubs within hubs. That way, we will have a large number of lists of wikis with related topics, and also lists comparing wikis to each other. We will then both have a considerable list of wikis and make the blue box pages truly redundant. Wjxhuang,  the 888th Avatar  {Talk} 09:24, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

The first thing i was thinking when i first read Sannse's post, is that we have worked for nothing on fr.wikia.com, de.wikia.com, etc.

If the new search will become good, and i think it will, maybe there should be a way to search Wikia wide from any wiki. Maybe two checkboxes aside the search box: * Local search * Wikia wide.

And this just gave me a pretty good idea i think. Why not replace the Wikianswers wiget by a "Ask a question" widget that would work the same maner with two checkboxes : * Ask on this wiki * Ask on Wikianswers.

The system could be configured by locals sysop so it create a forum page with the specified "premade" content (a bit like with the welcome bot). The users would simply have to type their question and the page would be created without presenting him an edit box. There could be a link "add details" and a link "add to your favorites".

— TulipVorlax 23:24, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

Very useful stuff!
Thanks for all this thought and feedback everyone. I don't know exactly what Central is going to look like in the future, but I know that with your help we can certainly improve it! We'll keep talking and listening as this plan develops -- sannse (talk) 00:38, December 11, 2009 (UTC)