Forum:Problem moderator on Kingdom Hearts Fan Fiction Wiki

I recently added some content to the Kingdom Hearts Fan Fiction Wiki, only to find my account there blocked by a moderator called "WolfRisingSun ". His apparent reason was "Inserting nonsense/gibberish into pages: Puts nonsense worlds like the hospital from ER or the Los Angeles seen in "Terminator" into my fan game Kingdom Hearts III, NO ONE FUCKS WITH MY GAME!!! KEEP OFF!!!) ". He's claiming way too much ownership of the Wiki as a whole, the Wiki's block log (http://kingdomheartsfanfiction.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Log/block) shows he has a history of doing this. Virtually all blocks since October 2009 are by him, all with justifications like the following:


 * Inserting nonsense/gibberish into pages: your articles are full of nonsense, grammer and wording makes no sense, come back when you gradutae kindergarten


 * Unacceptable username: We don't want unregistered users just filling our space with garbage and mindless nonsense phrases. Come back when you pass english


 * NO ONE EDITS MY PAGES, EVER!!!)


 * No one messes with my pages with my permission! I RUN THIS WIKI NOT YOU, GO TO HELL!!


 * I MEAN IT! NO MORE UNREGISTERED SHIT ON THIS WIKI, SO STAY OFF!!!)


 * Inserting nonsense/gibberish into pages: YOUR A FUCKING DOUCHBAG, STAY OFF AND DON'T COME BACK UNDER ANOTHER USERNAME. JUST STAY THE FUCK OFF AND GO TO HELL, YOU MOTHERFUCKING BASTARD!

And so forth... Aside from the obvious attitude problem and violations of basic terms and conditions regarding conduct towards other editord that would get any editor banned, this guy is a freaking moderator. He's basically turned the Wiki into his own private little website, banning anyone whose edits displease him. I don't understand how he's gotten away with this for so long or how he became a moderator in the first place, I guess no-one else thought of bringing it up here. It's a small Wiki, after all (then again, without him running his little dictatorship it would probably be twice as big). Frankly I think this guy should be banned or at least have his moderator priviliges, which he is now seriously abusing, revoked or suspended.

I've just contacted him about it, but given his long history of doing this I don't expect much reasoning to be possible. Xerruy 13:23, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you are unable to resolve it with him, please use w:c:kingdomheartsfanfiction:Special:Contact to report this. -- 13:25, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I already sent a message there yesterday, but that was before I discovered his past abuses on the block log. I'd sent another message, but that would be spamming I guess. I'll seee what comes off the first one. Xerruy 13:33, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

How long does it generally take before Wikia responds to such reports? Xerruy 23:10, July 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Usually about 2 days. Though during weekends it usually takes longer. Wikimania was this week, so most of the staff were there. Mark  ( talk ) 23:32, July 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah the guy is a complete tyrant. Power pushing... thats horrible Kajalamorth 23:47, July 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah the guy is a complete tyrant. Power pushing... thats horrible Kajalamorth 23:47, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it's actually multiple admins on the Wiki. Here's another one: http://kingdomheartsfanfiction.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Blaid/Changes. His sociopathy becomes painfully clear in the last few replies, he's on some kind of Palpatine routine or whatever. The other admins are acting more or less the same. Not as crazy, but they've formed a tight cartel, backing each other up whenever someone dares to challenge their dominion. Right now they're in the process of modifying the Wiki's rules to give themselves absolute power (especially # 4 - " any disruption of the unfairness of Admins will be blocked for 1 Week )". They know what they're doing, it's just a role playing game. Xerruy 00:03, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

The guy thinks he is a god.... Just tell mods about this abuse and sociopathic behaviour. Also afterwards don't pay attention to the wikia afterwards. Kajalamorth 17:45, July 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Looking at that, it seems that he thinks the wiki is his and all articles he makes are his. I feel that he, and any other administrators who agree with him and also block users, should have their powers removed. If this is all of them, then someone will need to adopt the wiki. But, they should be removed or talked to about it. ☆ The   Solar   Dragon  18:09, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would but if he would pull that crap I would spaz at him. I can't allow myself to go as a low level as them. Like I said this needs Staff to take care of the problem. Kajalamorth 20:04, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay I wrote this
 * Okay I wrote this




 * "You are breaking the most important wikia rule. You cannot use your priveliges like YOU are now. You have been reported to the staff and will LOSE your priviliges so if you like your position you should unblock the people you blocked for selfish reasons and stop. So STOP this TYRANNY!" It was short but I go angry in the middle of writing this message Jman2.0, Blaid and Wolf will probably ban me for ever but I will do the special contact thing and boom gone banned. I am tired of these controle freaks. Its a form of antisocial disorder I tell you Kajalamorth 02:33, July 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * That was totally unnecessary :/ I'm sure the staff is working on this already. Give them some time, this is not an easy case. ~IcecreamKitten
 * I know that but I presented a more.... "diplomatic" Every one needs a wake calls. They may be banned from wikia as a whole. Kajalamorth 03:03, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I won't say what you said was totally unnecessary, but it was not well written or even possibly accurate. It would help your case if you presented more calm and rational statements that contained proper spelling and good grammar. Be a bit more patient and take more time before you submit something. Getting too excited often makes things spiral out of control. -- Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 8:08 PM PST 12 Jul 2010


 * I don't really have any say over this, but I believe this should be taken to a forum on The kingdom hearts fan fiction wiki (the wiki involved with the issue). Central forums is not really the place for this. Thanks. Seahorseruler  (Talk Page) (Contribs) 03:06, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * The flaw in your reasoning is that the admins at that wiki may have already banned the person involved in the discussion, thus making forum use impossible. The initial request for advice was a perfectly legitimate use of Community Central Forums. The followup did get off track, though. -- Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 8:12 PM PST 12 Jul 2010
 * Sorry, I saw it as more of a staff request than asking for advice. Seahorseruler  (Talk Page) (Contribs) 03:15, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well all I need to say is that Fandyllic is correct....... So yeah, whatever I don't care anymore these guys are unsavable anyway. :( Kajalamorth 00:13, July 14, 2010 (UTC)

Little cartel, like emperor palpatine, huh?

Let me just say, I became administrator by simply asking the wikia. The KHFF had been abandoned and overrun with nonsense fanfiction. I simply took command and tried to clean up the clutter. In the process I was vandalized, sent abusive messages, and faced a brickwall of heavily dug in members. So I had to get rough and angry back, some times I do go to far still today. In the process, one user I had to ban threatened me across numerous wikias with death and or bodily harm. Xerruyguy managed to get my own e-mail, that really rattled my cage and made me afraid that he's watching my every move from a sniper scope!

Point is, I've had to wade through alot of crap, so If people call me tyrannical, its just that I'm real strict because of all that I've had to put up with. All I want to do is not clutter the wikia up with "garbage" so to speak. By that I mean I don't want five hundred articles about Sora going to the world of "Twilight", or about him fighting Terminators, Predators, and what not. I simply wished to make some simple guidelines.

I could never seem to perfectly explain them, and for some time I was stuck dealing with vandals and abusive message on my own. That is until Radiant and the Jman came along. They shared a common idea, and got just as much hate email. That's why i made them administrators, to help out and make these rules clear.

But then xerrugy came along and started this whole mess.

I don't know what it is you want from me, he's been unblocked and I've apologized. As for kejango I won't apologize. He doesn't know me or the others and what we've been through, yet he comes to the site demanding we all be hanged for our crimes against humanity, standing on his soapbox telling us were evil tyrants disobeying the wikia.

I had to be a little strict, but I don't see what I did as anything crossing the line. It may have been extreme measures, but nothing to deserve being kicked off wikia for all time.

Just take into consideration all the trouble I've been through till this point. If you decide to punish me, I'll except it, but let it be my sole responisibility. Whatever kajingo been telling you, Rad and Jman are not my little legion of doom, they weren't responsible for any of the blockings or strict enforcement, they just agreed with my methods. So don't let them pay for my leadership.

WolfRisingSun 02:34, July 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * First of all, he didn't "manage to get your e-mail". Wikia allows users to e-mail each other, and if you don't like that, you can turn that option off in your preferences.


 * Second, you guys just don't seem to get the point. Admins on wikia are not users that have more "power". They are users that have additional tools which help them take care of their wiki. Their main job is to provide guidance and assistance to new contributors. Everything I've seen from you suggests that you (and your crew) are not willing to do that (in best case). So, why exactly do you need the status of an admin?


 * New users are not equal to potential vandals. You and your crew appear to have some sort of personal crusade against imaginary vandals that are apparently besieging your wiki all the time. Your first reaction to vandalism, real or imaginary, is to block the user (for 20-100 years???). In reality, the primary tool against vandals is the Rollback button. Not block, not angry replies, just a rollback.


 * We can't have admins that scare off new users. If you get angry so easily, let somebody else do the job. --IcecreamKitten 07:58, July 14, 2010 (UTC)

Note:Section below heading added in to page later by User:Nilmax (split and heading added for clarity by - BulldozerD11 01:24, July 21, 2010 (UTC))

A Reply to points raised earlier
''"Little cartel, like emperor palpatine, huh?" ''Your words, not mine. This does sound Palpatine-y.
 * EDIT - they were my words, I stand corrected. —This unsigned comment is by Xerruy (talk • contribs) . Next time, please sign your posts with !

''"The KHFF had been (...) overrun with nonsense fanfiction." ''That's your opinion.

''"I simply took command and tried to clean up the clutter." ''The elemental flaw in your thinking and that of your "seconds-in-command" (as you refer to them on the KHFF Wiki) is that admins are supposed to be "in charge". They're not. I've already posted a link at KHFF that explains this.

''"In the process I was vandalized, sent abusive messages, and faced a brickwall of heavily dug in members." ''And how would you describe your actions at KHFF to my edits and the general way in which you and the other admins were "running" KHFF?

''"In the process, one user I had to ban threatened me across numerous wikias with death and or bodily harm. Xerruyguy managed to get my own e-mail, that really rattled my cage and made me afraid that he's watching my every move from a sniper scope!" ''I'm not claiming you accused me of this, but since you placed these sentences to close to one another I must clarify: I did not at any point threaten Wolf with anything. I only sent a critical e-mail. Not offensive, but to the point.

''"Point is, I've had to wade through alot of crap, so If people call me tyrannical, its just that I'm real strict because of all that I've had to put up with. All I want to do is not clutter the wikia up with "garbage" so to speak. By that I mean I don't want five hundred articles about Sora going to the world of "Twilight", or about him fighting Terminators, Predators, and what not. I simply wished to make some simple guidelines." ''You didn't make guidelines, you basically made an absolutist constitution that goes way beyond the scope of an administrator's authority. As are the other admins with their current "additional rules"

''"But then xerrugy came along and started this whole mess." I didn't start a mess, I found'' one and am trying to fix it.

''"he's been unblocked and I've apologized." ''I tried edit something with my Nilmax account today but it still said I was blocked. This is probably just an oversight and since you've stepped down as administrator I'm not going to further bother you with that particular matter. It's not the most pressing issue here anyway. Blaid, by the way, is basically demanding that I "admit my wrongs" before he'd unblock me. I don't think I need to explain how that is yet another abuse of admin priviliges and violation of Community Guideles... Nilmax 21:40, July 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * NB: If you've been unblocked, but still can't edit - chances are you're IP was autoblocked, and was not unblocked when your username was blocked. The system sees there is a block outstanding for your username, and retains the block -- Random Time  21:47, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

.

Call off the Manhunt
You can all relax now, my "reign of terror" is over. As of this morning, I've resigned as administrator.

I advised Blaid and Jman, and their going to unblock all the users 've keep off during my term as Admin. Their also going to take down those pprecious "Additional Rules".

So there, its over. You can alll ge back to your regular lives and stop plotting to assasinate the evil dictators of KHFF.

Just leave me, Blaid, and Jman alone, now. Please!

WolfRisingSun 11:26, July 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you think that solves the problem, I suppose it's for the best, but it doesn't seem like a very mature response. --- Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 9:39 AM PST 14 Jul 2010


 * Yeah, this admin is worse than Seahorseruler! —This unsigned comment is by Jeffwang16 (talk • contribs) . Next time, please sign your posts with !


 * I hope you are being facetious. -- Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11:14 AM PST 23 Jul 2010

The other mods
I've tried reasoning with the other moderators on the site, specifically the one called Blaid, but all I get is stuff like this "Don't answer back to this message, I won't be continuing this conversation no matter what you say, long live the Empire and my personal army of Sluts!" I think the fact that people who act like this can get moderator priviliges is an issue of broader concern. 02:05, July 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * There is always Special:Contact. No one on the Community Central Forums who is not Wikia staff can do anything about it. -- Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 8:01 PM PST 24 Jul 2010


 * They had enough time to sort things out. They didn't. Now there are only a few options left:
 * let the wikia staff sort it out
 * make your own similar wiki, that one is really a disgrace and will not do well with that kind of attitude.
 * Psychiatrical help for some of those guys would not be a bad idea either. IcecreamKitten
 * Creating my own Wiki doesn't solve the problem. Since they are abusing their moderator priviliges and I am not, I must say that I am somewhat taken aback by your suggestion that I am the one who should leave KHFF. If anyone should leave (and I'm not saying anyone should) it should be the ones who are abusing moderator priviliges and breaching community guidelines. Besides, do we want an identical Wiki for every time someone has a problem on a Wiki dedicated to a particular subject? That's hardly a community.


 * I'm already in contact with Wikia staff, what I'm doing here is create awareness. Again, if people who act like this can get moderator priviliges the problem is greater than KHFF alone. Another editor on KHFF who is for some reason sympathetic to the abusive admins pointed me to the Kingdom Hearts Fanon Wiki (claiming that I was being inconsistant for critizicing KHFF and not Fanon, while I didn't even know Fanon existed in the first place), which, while not as bad, seems to have a similar problem of admins giving themselves far too much priviliges. Xerruy 13:10, July 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Creating a new wiki is not an unreasonable option, and may solve the problem in a more subtle way. If you do a better job (which is very likely, seeing their Soviet mindset), your wiki could attract people that would feel discouraged by their attitude. With time, your wiki could become bigger and more popular, and theirs would simply be ignored.


 * The staff hasn't responded so far, so I'd start considering this alternative. Enforcing common sense as rules is not always the best idea. You can have the same or better result by discouraging bad behaviour (kinda like having laws against littering, as opposed to educating people about littering who will then put social pressure on inconsiderate people that litter) IcecreamKitten

You can be well aware that I have only blocked one during my time as Admin, a Wikian with no name that deleted an entire page I created, those are the type of people I shall block, that I promise. Incidentally, Xerruy's "other name" was blocked to begin with because he added a story into a certain page that had been created by Wolf and Wolf originally had plans for, Wolf's greatest mistake was his lack of explination in the discription of WHY he blocked people. Also, one must consider that there are distortions when comparing a Wiki to a Fan Wiki:

Fan Wikis are a gathering of all Fan of the specified object (this being Fan ideas of Kingdom Hearts), the reason why Xerruy was blocked was for this reason which WAS a mistake on his part, imagine if Xerruy went to the original Kingdom Hearts Wiki and changed it around so Riku was the main character - it would be inaccurate.

Another flaw of Wolfs is that over such a minor thing he blocked a person for an infinite amount of time, I agree that people need to be punished as it helps learn their lessons however Wolf went a slight too far, difference between me and Wolf is that I am willing to be diplomatic about it. However Xerruy seemed always to nag me about this one thing and everytime I explained something he dismissed my explination and citicised it and so the New Rules were made:

Guidelines are the same as all Wikis however, like with all Fan Wiki, a Fan Wiki which is made up of everyone's Fan ideas unintentionally overlook guidelines as unlike a normal Wiki it isn't a collection of knowledge from a single source but many, these "New Rules" are nothing more than a means to explain this but even after that effort it seems that Xerruy can't understand. As for MY actions personally, its just how I am, my country is a Monachy and I am descended from Nobility so it is how I was brought up and in no way my fault. - BoRadiant 23:13, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * They way I see it, blocking is some kind of last resort, for example if an edit war is going on or is someone keeps on posting external links to malicious sites, etc. It is not for something as little as a single edit to 'ones' page. That is the biggest mistake 'Wolf' made. We use the undo button or rollback button for that. You don't 'punish' someone for making a mistake. If you even think you have to punish someone on a wiki, you already went too far. I understand that there are special rules for special wikis such as yours, but that doesn't mean you should act like some kind of authority, you supposed to help and guide people. BramTalk/IGW 11:31, July 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * We've finally managed to come to a consensus of sorts on KHFF, so I think it's now best to leave this topic for what it is unless (if) new problems arise. The main issue was admins basically forcing their own ideas for what is and isn't eligible fan fiction upon other editors, but that has been resolved now. A "live and let live" policy seems to be the best way to make things work. Xerruy 17:03, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

I also have a problem like that....
A while ago, I stumbled across the Club Penguin Fanon Wiki, and what happened was, I started making up my own fanon, this admin reverted my edits, and the "man-in-charge" blocked me for one year for "vandalizing". I DEMAND TO BE UNBLOCKED NOW. I was also VERY confused. So every time I think about CP Fanon, I compare it to KHFF. I just don't understand why the hell was I blocked. Yeah, I'm SO angry now. And the first admin who reverted my edits said "FAIL, you have to ask the "man-in-charge" to change things like that. Wikia Staff acted like it's fine, but the above comment made me post it here. Jeffwang16   (Talk)   (Contribs.)  Email 01:35, July 31, 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad I managed to resolve things with the remaining KHFF mods myself and finally got them to relinquish their control, because Wikia's U.N.-like responses to my requests weren't really getting anyone anywhere and. It took an unusual amount of prodding to get them to even bother talking to the guy, and even that was just some fluffy "friendly advice" which seemed utterly disproportionate in comparison to the engregious abuse that had been reported. My advice to you is to be persistant but remain polite. Be diplomatic and strive to a common ground, but also make clear that this is a very serious abuse of admin priviliges on their part and that you're not about to take that kind of shit. What worked out for me in the end was tenaciously continuing my defense and not give them an excuse to ban me for incivility. In the end I managed to get them to understand that allowing me to add my own stuff wouldn't affect theirs in any way. Things are fine over there now, now that he's cooled off the other mod is turning out to be a pretty easygoing guy. Xerruy 13:37, July 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * If I check this edit and following edits and edits on related pages, it looks like you had a little edit war over there Jeffwang16. It also looks like you tried to change a couple of the main pages of that wiki (I'm not really familiar with that wiki) and your edits cannot be considered 'minor', so I can understand their protectiveness. That's also something they explained on your talk page. Try to start with a few minor edits the next time before you decide to change something fundamental like the political view of the fictional country they have over there, or create your own subsection i.e. state like they suggested over there. The problem right now is you can't edit at all since you're blocked, but it might help if you showed some understanding. BramTalk/IGW 14:25, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Truth be told, on Fan Wikis it's best to just create your own edits and not edit articles others created because in general people are vey protective of their fan fiction. As per my previous conflict - I'm fundamentally against this being enforced as a rule but I do think it's best if everyone does it voluntarily. Bram's findings notwithstanding they're definitely overreacting and out of line. Xerruy 20:03, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fan fiction is very personal. Generally only obvious grammar and spelling changes are usually acceptable. However, for factual articles, you can't own those. People who try to make factual articles exclusive to them for editing should not be heeded. For factual articles, accuracy should be paramount. -- Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 4:00 PM PST 31 Jul 2010
 * Wisely said, but how does this help now? The pages Jeffwang16 edited on CPFW cannot be considered 'factual', can they? Anyway, fan fiction wikis always have to be very clear about these kind of things and very supportive to new editors who do not understand this concept right away. Wiki software obviously is not perfect for fan fiction stuff, and anyone starting a fan fiction website probably has to face that. BramTalk/IGW 17:47, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Bram, you hit the nail on the head here. The greatest problem with a fan fiction Wiki is finding a compromise between allowing people creative control over whatever they create and the basic Wiki principle of "anyone can edit any article". The current consensus on KHFF is refraining from editing each other's stuff voluntarily and letting things coexist, but that's only workable because there's only like three people regularly editing their articles right now. It won't work on a larger Wiki, but you can't enforce a rule banning people from editing other editors' fan fiction either because that would violate basic Wikia principles. Consensus is the only thing that's going to help in these cases. Xerruy 01:32, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

Swfanon.wikia.com has over 25,000 articles and has been around for 5 years. The wiki has a community-approved editing policy making it very clear that, unless otherwise noted, people's articles are their own. That in-house policy is perfectly acceptable on a fan fiction wiki, should the community so choose. =) - Brandon Rhea (talk) 03:04, August 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would have thought that the 'simple' solution on site that have a mix of 'real' articles and 'fan fiction' pages is to have a template (msg box) on all 'fan' fiction pages that states its a 'fan' fiction page and links to the relevant policy on that wikis, and /or have them in a seperate namespace. Such a template could also stick them in a 'fan fiction category as well. - BulldozerD11 12:02, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

@Brandon Rhea: I am not into Star Wars and just because you founded it doesn't mean we should go there. I really think there should be a Fan Fiction Policy across Wikia.  Jeffwang16  (Talk)   (Contributions)   (Email me!)  15:05, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe someone could create a couple of guidelines in the style of the Simplified ruleset for 'factual' wikis that fanon wikis could copy and paste, but I don't think there's a need for a global fanon policy. There isn't even a real policy for 'normal' wikis, at least not one that I'm aware of. I also think the fanon community can create guidelines themselves so that wikia staff can focus on more important staff. Creating a global policy across Wikia would only mean work for them. BramTalk/IGW 15:22, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

@Jeff - I wasn't asking you to go there (and I didn't found the wiki, just to clarify). I was giving Xerruy an example, based on "It won't work on a larger Wiki," of a fan fiction wiki&mdash;the largest fan fiction wiki, in fact&mdash;where the users created a policy about how their articles are essentially their own. Such a policy is indeed workable. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 15:41, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

I think the community should draft a Fanon Policy somewhere. Any suggestions?  Jeffwang16  (Talk)   (Contributions)   (Email me!)  21:03, August 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I see no need for such a thing, as the nature of fanon is so dynamic that guidelines may need to be wholly different on different wikias depending on the subject matter. 21:24, August 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sample policy pages would be great, but from my experience, Wikia is not a great supporter of written policies based on my experience at w:c:answers. Fanons are not so dynamic that some general rules can't be outlined. I mean, most fanons would reasonably have at least guidelines for keeping a majority of the writing in-universe, otherwise why even have topic specific fanons? It would be funny however to see a Star Wars fanon invaded by editors writing only in the Star Trek universe style. Now that would be dynamic! Or even better, a Twilight fanon invaded by Pokemon editors! -- Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 3:34 PM PST 2 Aug 2010

How about SEGA Fanon editors in the Nintendo Fanon Wiki? Result: Users getting blocked and their edits reverted. SEGA is SEGA, and Mario and Sonic have almost nothing to do with each other. The point is, Fanon wikis are for FANS of the subject. That's why I don't edit at the following wikis: -- Jeffwang16  (Talk)   (Contributions)   (Email me!)  22:43, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Big wikis which have too much stupid policies. And by "stupid", I mean pointless and not-so-useful policies.
 * Ones that are confusing and make my head ache.
 * Ones that have lame editors who mind other people's business and administrators don't care :( (example of a lame editor).


 * Let's keep specific personal swipes out of this, please. This is a good conversation in this section, so there's no reason to bring disputes with other users into it. =) - Brandon Rhea (talk) 22:55, August 2, 2010 (UTC)