Thread:FanofRPGs/@comment-24383490-20200725070326/@comment-25295648-20200730141919

Firestorm either couldn't finish doing so, but I wanted him to post this on the prince of pushing blog I wrote up.

I object to this calculation, as I will explain below:

For one thing, we know one constant regardless is that the planet is growing larger in diameter. Past that, we are given no mention of how mass is affected and this one quote about gravity:



This implies three answers:


 * 1) That Superman is dealing with the situation at speeds at which the gravity waves emanating from the mini-sun won’t affect anything. Should this be true, the whole calculation would be unusable due to Superman needing faster than light speeds to outpace the gravity doing its thing
 * 2) As the radius grows, the gravity grows too. This means eventually once the radius reaches a certain size, the gravity will have risen too, this also means the mass is increasing too inevitably.
 * 3) That the gravity of the star is high, but not to such an excessive degree that it would instantly raze the surroundings then and there, but instead rapidly lead to some pretty decent damage on a localized scale

Which translates to three different interpretations of how this is playing out:


 * 1) The mass is static, but the radius is increasing
 * 2) All three variables are increasing over time
 * 3) The gravity is static, and it is the radius and mass of the star increasing

I will analyze all three:

1st Interpretation
The calculation above assumes the first interpretation. Here is why I don’t believe this is very usable.

Basically it assumes the mass of the star is a static 1.998e+30 kilograms, but it’s radius is increasing. What was its radius as Superman was pushing it? Well here are some scans:




 * Superman = 333x213 pixels = 395.29482668 pixels = 190.50 centimeters
 * Superman Cape = 220x78 pixels = 233.418079848 pixles = 112.488556 centimeters




 * Superman Cape Streak = 7x48 pixels = 48.5077313425 pixels = 112.488556 centimeters
 * Sun = 905 pixels = 2098.67871 centimeters
 * Radius = 1049.33936 centimeters, or 10.4933936 meters

So it has a radius of 1049.33936 centimeters. However, the Chandrekessar Limit for a black hole with the mass of the sun would have a radius of 2954 meters, a lot more than 10.4933936 meters. This means the mere existence of the star should collapse on itself. Now this can be explained as it coming from another reality through warping and it’s adjusting to prevent this, so I can ignore that.

What, however, cannot be ignored is the gravity.

The gravity can be found by the formula gravity = (G)(M)/(R)^2

(G)(1.998e+30 kilograms)/(10.4933936 meters)^2 = 1.21103018e+18 meters per second squared

1.21103018e+18 meters per second is very high. How high? A neutron star is around 7e+12 meters per second squared. That means this would have a gravity 173,004.311x that of a neutron star’s. This isn’t going to tear apart Metropolis. This is going to probably destroy the planet. Want proof?

The sun, weighing 1.998e+30 kg here,

https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-a-skyscraper-weigh#:~:text=Other%20vertical%20and%20horizontal%20loading,tons%20according%20to%20the%20records.

The average skyscraper is around 225,000 tons

Let’s assume the building is 30 meters away

G(1.998e+30 kg * 225,000 tons)/(30 meters)^2 = 3.02428445e+25 newtons, which would be enough force to blast apart the entire continent just given the relationship between the mini-sun and the building.

And this isn’t overthinking the feat. The fact that gravity is a major factor here cannot be denied, even Superman states gravity has a tangible effect here and that is why he needs to get the Sun out of the city. So even by Superman’s own acknowledgement, there is a correlation between him needing to get it out and the possibility that this may do harm to the city due to its gravity alone.

And no, you can’t just handwave the Sun as having 274 m/s^2 too alongside it’s 10.4933936 meter radius and proposed 1.998e+30 kilogram mass. That is impossible given the gravity formula and one might as well throw away any possibility of calculating this feat at that point because the physics will magically be different.

The only way this can thus be explained, again, is by assuming Superman had to go faster than light to physically move and take out the planet before the gravitational waves can do anything. I reiterate, Superman acknowledges there is a correlation between gravity and the damage it could do, however the damage done under this interpretation would obliterate the planet almost instantly, and thus the feat requires a FTL kinetic energy and is unusable.

Lastly for this, it should be noted that the gravity given this interpretation would actually decrease as the Radius grows. The scans imply that either gravity will increase to levels that could threaten the city, or at least remain the same but be enough to potentially do some decent damage on the city over time. As I just noted, the first possibility contradicts the fact that gravity should be lowering and the second possibility would do so much more than "tear apart" the city that it's a total understatement and Superman would absolutely have to go FTL to take the star away before gravitational waves do anything which again makes this feat unquantifiable.

Simply put, assuming the mini-Sun had the actual mass of the Sun leads to various logical and physical inconsistencies which can only be answered by assuming Superman was moving at FTL speeds to push the start and is thus unquantifiable.

2nd Interpretation
The next interpretation is fine in that it isn’t functionally flawed unlike the first one I guess, but would be an extreme low end. The starting radius is still 10.4933936 meters. That is a volume of 4,840 cubic meters

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/media/turn-up-volume-wbt/

(1,409,272,569,059,860,000 cubic kilometers)/(4,840 cubic meters)

= 2.91172018e23

(1.998e+30 kilograms)/2.91172018e23 = 6,861,923.11 kilograms

G(6,861,923.11 kilograms)/(10.4933936 meters)^2 = 0.00000415915714 meters per second squared

Now technically, there is nothing wrong with these numbers. Superman implied that either the gravity will increase or stay the same, and this would be the case here. The mass and radius also would increase, the problem comes that this interpretation is way too much of a low end given the context. The gravity is so low here it will do absolutely nothing. The mass is also a nonissue here and the buildings around it would weigh much more. This interpretation is way too low and can be ignored.

3rd Interpretation
The third interpretation is that while the gravity stays static, that of the Sun's, the radius and mass of the sun would increase.

This is actually the most reasonable interpretation I believe.

First I must return to the fact that the gravity is either expanding or static but could eventually destroy the city. The text creates a correlation to the star expanding, but the gravity not destroying the city yet, which could back up the notion it had a low gravity. But the low gravity would be unrealistic given the threat Superman perceives this to be and so can be explained he is worried the Sun could grow in radius so its heat starts burning stuff or it just smashes through everything. A gravity of 274 m/s^2 also is high enough that it will start crushing and rending buildings as it grows bigger, but make sure it doesn’t simply rip the planet apart like with the first interpretation. Superman can still safely get people away from the perimeter and move the planet at sub-luminal speeds and we can still get a kinetic energy calculation from it.

This interpretation also gives the most reasonable mass for the star, as I will show:

(R)^3/(M)(T)

The sun is 274 m/s^2


 * A = GM/R^2
 * (R^2)(A)/(G) = M

(10.4933936 meters)^2(274 m/s^2)/(G) = 4.52054796e+14 kilograms

And how much force would come out from this mass now?

G(4.52054796e+14 kilograms*225,000 tons)/(30 meters)^2 = 6.84255401e+9 newtons

This force would destroy buildings nearby and all, but would not vaporize the city and continent from its sheer force.

Now if you look at the scan Superman looks like he is straining, but note he is saying that he isn’t being sunamped from this star due to being from another universe. That means he is taking the brunt of the heat, pressure, etc of a star without any protection or amp to stop the brightness or temperature. Nothing in text suggests he is straining due to the mass and he is able to throw it out of orbit pretty good. So all in all, this is a relatively casual feat.

It weighing 4.52054796e+14 kilograms would thus actually be pretty consistent. It isn’t so extremely light, like only a couple million kilograms, that it is unimpressive, but likewise stellar lifting strength for Superman is very unlikely, especially when the feat to supposedly back it up (This one, using the first interpretation) is pretty casual. The villain who orchestrated the events outright said Superman did it “handedly.” Stellar lifting strength, especially one that is casual, is very inconsistent with Superman at the time. He never has had another lifting strength feat near Sun level. Before Infinite Crisis, Superman needed the aid of Wonder Woman or Green Lantern to pull/lift planets. After it, Superman was now capable of bench pressing Earth, but there is no further statement on the matter. Benchpressing Earth was off-panel but can be assumed to be an average workout sure, but so casual that he can actually lift hundreds of thousands of times above that? Lastly Superman’s black hole feats would give weight-forces not near enough to reach stellar. So stellar level Superman when it comes to lifting strength isn’t actually consistent.

Meanwhile 4.52054796e+14 kilograms is actually pretty heavy. It’s about a third as massive as Mars’ Moon Deimos and twice as massive as Hailey’s Comet. This is something that Superman would lift in a comic and be considered impressive. He would still be able to do it with minimal strain and the strain he experienced was due to the radiation, heat, and pressure hitting on him without actually sunboosting him like normal due to being from another universe.

As such I believe this interpretation to be the most sensible and realistic given it allows for a gravity high enough to be a legitimate threat to Metropolis unlike the second interpretation which would have an extremely low gravity, but not ludicrous like the first interpretation which had a gravity hundreds of thousands of times above neutron star level. This means Superman can move and throw it out at subluminal speeds giving an actual kinetic energy which would be impossible otherwise as the gravity waves of the first interpretation would destroy the planet at light speed meaning Superman had to go FTL and thus rendering the calculation unusable. Lastly, this gives a mass that isn’t unnaturally low like the second interpretation such that the feat is unimpressive which is against the whole purpose (It was a test to see if Superman was strong and receptive enough to deal with the problem), but the star wouldn’t have stellar mass like in the first calculation which would be totally beyond Superman’s paygrade, who had only since after Infinite Crisis even potentially gained the ability to lift planets alone. Rather the mass would be a relatively impressive large asteroid-sized feat and serve as a good test for Superman to “handedly” throw out like he was stated to have done.

https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/relativistic-ke

Cal already noted that the Low end speed was 99356666.66667 m/s, Mid end speed was 198713333.33333 m/s, and High end speed was 238456000 m/s.


 * Low end: 581.6717115468321 exatons of tnt
 * Mid end: 3.258194476062503 zettatons of tnt
 * High end: 6.316.3112977067571431297706757143 zettatons of tnt