Forum:New IRC channel

This is for those that use the #wikia channel on Freenode. The channel hasn't been used or supported by staff for some time now, and there have been a few disagreements about the channel administration. So, as staff aren't around to help with these, we've decided to remove ourselves officially and to redirect the channel to a new unofficial one.

The ops for this new channel need to be decided, and staff won't be part of that decision. This page is for the IRC regulars to decide how to choose ops, and then who to choose. Once that choice is made, I will hand over the new channel and redirect the old. So, over to you.... please let us know when the decision is final. Thanks -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 16:49, October 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming you won't be able to get wikia cloaks anymore? 1358  (Talk)  16:54, October 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * There won't be new ones, no. It's been pretty hard to get hold of them for a while anyway, I'm only on IRC for a short time in the (SF) evenings. I'll stay as GC to maintain existing cloaks and so on though -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 17:20, October 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * I havn't seen many people who voiced a compliant about OPs in #wikia, but I understand the move if staff aren't ever going to be present (which has been the status quo for some time). In terms of ops for the new channel, Charit, Godisme, Vega and Myself are the people who I generally see using op who already have it, and I think can be trusted with it on the new channel, perhaps +o to some other regulars who are trusted as well, or someone I've missed? --  Random Time  17:48, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

Tis a shame to see that newer users will be unable to receive IRC cloaks to show their pride in Wikia and to help ensure they are who they say they are onwiki. It would appear the current ops have things under control, but I wouldn't oppose some regulars in the channel to receive +o as well. 19:38, October 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * As Zam said, the current OPs have things running pretty smoothly, and I'm not opposed to some regulars receiving +o, as long as they have a client, since webchat doesn't allow banning. –  Jä zz  i  20:12, October 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about, webclient allows banning. 21:19, October 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Derp. I knew webchat didn't allow something, thought it was banning instead of /ignore. –  Jä zz  i  21:25, October 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * I would suggest Jäzzi, Monchoman45 and myself as the three of us are usually on at times that the others above aren't. Rappy 20:35, October 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * If I may, I'd like to put myself in the hat of suggestions. I'm on a good majority of the time lurking. 22:21, October 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * We don't need that many ops. My suggestion is this, myself, Charitwo and Randomtime, being the active administrators of community central, Vega Dark, being a trusted member of the VSTF and in a timezone not covered by the rest of us, and Monchoman45 who is usually on in the mornings, a time that most of the other ops are not on or not paying attention. While Rappy, Jazzi and Zam are trusted enough to receive +o, I don't see the necessity for it. From my experience on the channel, things are usually handled by charitwo, Randomtime or Vega and occasionally myself. Not a whole lot is missed and one of us can be pinged if something happens. So that is my suggestion.--
 * I disagree, the more ops the better to a reasonable extent. More ops ultimately means more coverage, and if there are trusted users willing to volunteer their time doing it... why not? I'd support all of the above mentioned people. 22:44, October 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe give trusted users +r to enable quieting? 1358  (Talk)  06:21, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I suppose as I was mentioned in #wikia too (and I've mused about this myself too) I would be available as an well-experienced IRC channel administrator for whatever duties are needed. (: –Tm_T (Talk) 09:02, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry I'm a little late to this, technical difficulties. Webchat does allow full use of /mode, through a hack or two I could extend that to allow for a quick /op /mode +b-o. Alternatively, I could get a client to use as my banning client. Whichever works out better.

A couple of things: Firstly, don't forget you need an F as well as ops. Also remember that this is a brand new channel and the past organization does not have to be the same as the future... this is not an op decision, the channel has no ops yet :) And, while it's up to you how you make this decision, I'd love it if as many people as possible could be involved -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png  (help forum | blog)  06:18, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed, although I see the already mostly community-run team be in core of this. (: –Tm_T (Talk) 09:02, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * The people most likely to be on IRC are normally regulars on central as well, so it's a good mix, as far as +F goes - Charit seems the obvious choice if nobody has any other suggestions. I'd be happy giving Rappy, Jazzi, Tm_T op, I havn't had too much experience of Zam to know if he'd be a good candidate, but I'm sure others can give their opinion on that, I don't have any objections to him being op. --  Random Time  13:08, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd support VegaDark for +F personally, and I'd also be fine with Tm_T being an op. As I said above, the more the merrier (to a reasonable extent). 13:54, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no objections to any of those. Whatever works for everyone else.

After some discussion yesterday, I think most of us think Charitwo would be best for +F. With that we can work with Freenode staff about setting up a new cloak for new users and means of obtaining them. Most of us supported keeping the channel purpose mainly the same as it has been of late, a social place for the most part but a place users can come to receive help if they need it. If they need staff, we just direct them elsewhere. Most also believe that irc.wikia.com should be redirected to Special:Chat. As for Ops, I still believe we only need a handful but if others really want many ops, I am fine with that.--
 * I'm fine with Charitwo to have +F. The only issue I can see is if Wikia makes it an unofficial channel people will no longer go in there looking for help, which is what a lot of people do. Also, in some of the discussions on IRC many have stated that they will not sit in Special:Chat 24/7 to provide help to users since Chat has connection issues often. I support many Ops, since it doesn't really hurt to have more cookies in the cookie jar, it just sucks when there isn't any when you want one. 16:22, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Charitwo seems the best bet for +F. And as for OPs:
 * Charit is normally always connected.
 * Randomtime has the timezone of Englandland so he's on when others aren't.
 * Vega is on when others aren't.
 * Zam, while normally connected, has connection issues.
 * Godisme is normally on, during class and goes to sleep later than the others in the eastern timezone.
 * Monch is normally on in the mornings, so that's good and I'm pretty sure he knows the controls.
 * Rappy is on pretty much all the times, but he's not always on on, so it might be some time for a response.
 * While I'm always connected on Jaz|away, I'm not always connected on my laptop, so I'm not on during the day due to school. But I have no life in the afternoon, but I sleep early.
 * –  Jä zz  i  16:46, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * We could also use ops who are east of England. Y'know, Oceanians, Asians and Eastern Europeans. Tm T and me both live in Finland and I'm usually online when Brits are in school/at work, Americans asleep and Australians sleeping as well. :P 1358  (Talk)  22:14, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd support Xd for op. 22:16, October 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Trust in mine stalwart declaration when I state that I cannot disagree more with my esteemed colleague. Charitwo doth possess a mean spirit and temper which doth often flare in excess, leading to heinous acts of the kind which have rarely been seen in civilized society. He doth enjoy use of the gag, and believe firmly in use of the truncheon in lieu of words. He doth protesteth too much! Goodwood  Talk  | My Darthipedia   Edits  18:46, October 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * A couple of things, while Charitwo does have a temper, he has gotten much better with it, and is truly the best choice for +F.
 * And you need to template your sig. –  Jä zz  i  18:51, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * The fact that he has gotten better with his temper isn't a reason why he is the best choice for +F. Someone who can manage their temper in the first place is already doing better. 22:09, October 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * To a lesser degree, I agree with what Goodwood is saying. Charitwo is qualified on many grounds. He's clearly popular with the most active users and has been around the longest out of them. I just think he could be more considerate towards some of the users he warns or bans. How he handles trolls and spammers are fine. Users who join without the intention of causing trouble, but otherwise end up being disruptive or annoying and even regular users who unknowingly say/do mild stuff out-of-line often aren't made feel welcome by him. By no means is he a bad user, but if he's immediately put on top of the operators "hierarchy", I don't know if he'll ever work on improving this.
 * That said, better suggestions for +F aren't springing into my mind. If in the end, Charitwo is given +F responsibilities, I hope he will try to work on these. -- Deltaneos (talk) 19:51, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I also agree somewhat. Charitwo tends to be uncommunicative and talks down to anyone who's not on his good side. About a week ago there were some joke kicks -- I'm not sure that Charitwo did the kicks, but his response afterwards was very off-putting, and he seemed to say that because staff no longer entered the channel, it was unofficial and thus there was no oversight or accountability on what he did. Putting him in charge of access rights on a completely unofficial channel does not sound like a good idea to me. I don't have any ideas for +F, but I don't think we should just go to Charitwo by default.
 * As for ops, I think the more the merrier: I trust most of the people in the channel, and there are no negative side effects of having more than needed. Also, I may be missing something, but why can't we keep the #wikia name? Cook Me Plox 20:13, October 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * People have stated above that they'd like the purpose of the channel to remain the same. I wholeheartedly agree. I come to #Wikia to help user with JS/CSS and wiki-formatting. The socializing aspect is a bonus. I do not want to see this channel lose its integrity and/or general purpose. Those above raise good points and I would like to see all opinions here addressed before a final opinion is made. Rappy 21:13, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I am fine with the functionality of the channel remaining the same, but I think that we should consider allowing more socializing into it, especially given its new unofficial nature.
 * I also have concerns with Charitwo having +F, quite honestly. He has repeatedly shown that he considers his op actions above the general community, and refuses to discuss any kick or ban that he has made. I think that for an IRC channel relating to anything "wiki-ish", transparency should be a major goal. I am also concerned because his attitude and behaviour has been going on for years ( Quite a few of the opposing comments have similar concerns with his IRC behaviour ), and I doubt that it is going to change. If he does get the +F, then I'd ask that he allow for more transparency around kicks and bans, and also not just dismiss any concerns that are raised. 22:09, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * With so many people being opposed to Charitwo as +F, let's just have a simple vote for who gets the +F. I will list each person's name who is currently being considered for op, the person with the most votes gets +F, anyone can throw in another name if they want, just one vote for person though. Sign your name below the person you vote for.--
 * I don't have concerns with Charitwo having +F really; I doubt he'd take over the channel; but he really needs to improve his IRC behavior. I for one have seen many not-so-pleasant confrontations involving charitwo, and he actually /remove'd (force-part) me from the channel while I was asleep, which I do not consider appropriate for an IRC operator. 1358  (Talk)  22:18, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I likewise agree that he wouldn't completely destroy anything, but I also see this new channel as a way to improve from what we had before - thus why I'd like to have some actual improvement, not more of the same. There is no indication that Charitwo is going to change his behaviour, and as such I'd like to look at someone else's candidacy. 22:21, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

If people have concerns they should bring them to me. I've been a channel operator in #wikia for a little over 4 years. Originally people had concerns with me being too harsh with moderation, so I eased back a lot and basically let other ops handle things unless nobody was around. I am welcome to completely changing this new channel however the #wikia regulars want it to change to and like the way the discussion about the direction of the purpose of the channel is going.

Cook,1358: Myself (and a few others) occasionally jokingly devoice others or sometimes joke-kick them, so please do not single me out for this when I'm not the only one doing it (Dantman, Eulalia, Joey, VegaDark, Randomtime, Godisme, and others) Sorry if this seems like a callout but I don't feel its fair that I'm the only being put on display for it when others who have done the same are also being voted for. If someone messaged me and was like OK I don't like that, please don't do it, I would immediately cease. As I did with Rappy when he took up issue with the aforementioned joke kicks, I haven't done so since. Although if I happened to have been voted into +F, I wouldn't be devoicing or joke-kicking anyone for any reason, since as the "channel owner" I should be setting an example for the other channel operators. -- 04:04, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * My problem was not so much the joke kick but how you dealt with Rappy afterwards. Cook Me Plox 06:29, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Eh, I was just messing around and he took it like I was negatively targeting him. Other than him thinking I am just being mean or something, I have no qualms. Like anyone else who teases him (e.g. betting Rappy Dollars, Rappy's fault, etc) it was meant to be harmless, he seemed to take it otherwise. I personally would like an amicable resolution. -- 06:37, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Looking back on what you said in #wikia afterwards, it did not seem to me to be good-hearted or simply teasing. If you mess with someone and they don't like it, saying "I don't have time to argue with a grumpy guss, please find something more productive to do" or "I have no time to bother with the likes of you. You argue for the sake of arguing. Bugger off." doesn't help. You also appeared to justify it by saying that the channel was quasi-unofficial. That "incident" is very indicative of the problems that you have communicating with people who bother you. It's not something I like seeing from +o, let alone +F. Cook Me Plox 07:09, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * I was teasing. But I was annoyed because he followed that up by arguing just to argue while I was trying to help someone in #wikia-vstf. And as I said above, I'd much rather avoid situations like that entirely, especially when they interfere with op or vstf duties. Let alone "jokes" in general were I to be "owner" of a new channel. That and he's never approached me personally to resolve the issue, something I'd like to do. -- 07:20, October 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think we can always expect the "OK I don't like that, please don't do it" attitude from users you've just kicked/banned/silenced. When people think they've been mistreated, their good side is most often not going to show and they are likely to be angry. As an op, you need to be prepared for this and be patient with them. Cool-down blocks have much more negative effects than positive ones in my opinion. Even if the user is "wrong", "rehabilitation" is needed rather than "punishment".
 * While it is good, that you are willing to change your attitude when put in a position of higher responsibility. Saying you'll set a better example because you've been selected as the "owner", isn't quite the same as saying you've set a good so you should be the "owner".
 * My biggest issues with you are you tend to be cabal oriented and unwelcoming, regardless or whether these are intentional or not.
 * Regarding the "unwelcoming" problems, there was a somewhat recent incident involving a user, who was probably the most helpful person in the channel at the time. They said that they found it funny when people used the channel for something it wasn't intended for [I can't remember exactly]. Your response was something along the lines of don't ever show that attitude again if you value your position in this channel. You could have easily taken the "OK I don't like that, please don't do it" approach you mentioned above. (Even more recently you made a similar comment to someone on Skype.) A few days later you even temporarily silenced that user without notice for very minimal involvement in minor Pokémon roleplaying that other users had begun. Another helpful former regular user has left in the past over you moderating this way. Your attitude to users who aren't regular hasn't been much better either. Being unwelcoming is never a good idea, but if this channel does become unofficial, I don't know much advertising for it Wikia are going to leave, so we may have fewer users and we don't want to be scaring them away.
 * Regarding "cabal" issues, like with the Rappy incident, where you say he should talk to you personally, although he was stating his problems into the channel. With many of your +q and +b actions in the past, you've said it's only the business of you the person affected. For other blocks, you've said the block sticks once you've got the approval of other op, admin or staff.
 * Do you think these are legitimate problems and are you willing to work on them?
 * Please don't take this as me targeting you specifically, there are other candidates who've shown similar problems, in my opinion. I would like to address those two. I don't personally dislike you or any of the other candidates. But for the channel as a whole, I think the person "in charge" needs to be more diplomatic. -- Deltaneos (talk) 11:42, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * It is also very hard to tell what consists of "teasing" and what consists of you being in a bad mood, feeling like abusing your op, etc. A slightly older example (July 3rd 2011) in which you kicked rappy for saying "sekrit - fail... you deop'd your clone" with the rational "your comment is unnecessary" is slightly scary. Three users then stated their complaints publicly about the action, and all of those complaints were dismissed. That is not something I want to see coming from any op, never mind a +F. I have the logs of this incident and am willing to publicly release them if Charitwo, Rappy, GreenReaper, Jazzi, Skizzerz and VegaDark are OK with it. 14:25, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think this is the most vocal I've ever seen you, I had to open my own reply in a new window just to make sure I've addressed everything.
 * I agree with that, although each scenario is different. We have to differentiate between users who may not know the rules and users who show up clearly to cause trouble and know they're in the wrong by doing it. What do you determine to be the difference "punishment" and "rehabilitation". Additionally, since Freenode introduced the muting system, I have preferred to use that rather than simply just barring someone from the channel.
 * Oh, I know. I just didn't want to sound like I'm saying "OK, I'll do this and this so you should vote for me" because it sounds like canvassing. I'd rather just simply say what people can expect out of me so they can make an informed decision.
 * You make several good points here and I'd like to work with them. I don't remember the specific scenarios in general but a lot of times I'm not aware of "how" I'm just focused on getting the channel back "in order". But I will do well to watch how I come across in general in future situations. I do agree an unwelcome approach is not desirable in a channel that is deemed by Wikia to be unofficial.
 * I said I preferred users to contact me privately regarding a decision I made because it prevents the channel from being disrupted further. While this also prevents transparency in dealing with the user, I prefer it because it returns the channel back to "Normal" (whatever that may be at the time). What we can look at doing is making an -ops channel to where users can discuss things with the lot of us while still keeping the main channel clutter free.
 * I'm willing to work with everyone involved here. I want this channel transition to be an improvement rather than something negative. I was worried of the outcome when I saw the decision to close the channel. Regardless of chat's current stability I still prefer IRC as the medium of off-wiki communication. It makes it easy to separate "wiki-work" from a more social and relaxed atmosphere (speaking of IRC in general, not just #wikia).
 * Oh no, and I agree with you completely. As said above I much prefer working out issues right away rather than letting them linger and have to deal with something like this. This is why I said above I wish Rappy would have been willing to work out something with me on an interpersonal level (which is why I said private communication). I'm not trying to reduce transparency around the management of the channel at all. When everything is setup we need to look into something like I mentioned above where users can discuss decisions, quiets, bans, rules, or otherwise. My main concern is keeping the primary channel in a state of normalcy. -- 17:12, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I can see that. I remember that and that particular incident was me just messing with Rappy, I wasn't angry or upset with him at all. And I didn't mean to come off as dismissive, it was just that I was looking at it as "another joke". I've always operated under the mindset that I'm just like everyone else until it's time to use op status to handle something. Mixing the two is often confusing and I agree it may not be the wisest. -- 17:12, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Votes for +F
Rules:
 * 1) One person one vote.
 * 2) No voting for yourself.
 * 3) Only active members of the channel should vote. No sockpuppeting to get votes.

Charitwo

 * 1) Charitwo is basically the de facto leader of the channel already. He is experienced and can be trusted with +F.--
 * 2) Charitwo is the person who I'd choose if I couldn't choose myself, I can't choose myself, so I choose Charit --  Random Time  22:51, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Rappy 4187

 * 1) I vote for the 4187'th Rappy.22:28, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * 2)  N7  &#91; T &#124; C &#93; 22:29, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * 3) 1358  (Talk)  23:27, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * 4) Straw polls ftw! 22:21, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Jack Phoenix

 * 1) He doth possess mine full faith and trust. Goodwood 23:21, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Comments
Voting at this stage? I think a better thing to do would be to narrow it down to 3 or so nominations, and then vote - a bit like an RFA, you talk about the candidate's strengths and weaknesses before deciding --  Random Time  22:34, October 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Frankly I think discussion would dissolve far before we ever got it down to 3 candidates. People are interested in voting right now. No one is going to change their mind after a discussion, this just saves times.--
 * If nobody is willing to take a good look at the evidence and make an informed decision then something is wrong with how things work here. 22:36, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't mind a split +F with a few trusted users - which would allow for a bit of redundancy --  Random Time  22:37, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I would likewise be fine with that. Redundancy leads to less of a cabal, which is a good thing imo. Recommend that people be allowed to vote for their top two/three choices. 22:41, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Single vote still works. Instead of a winner take all we just make it the top 3 get the flag.--
 * Then can we have opposing votes as well? There's a huge difference between someone with 3 supports and 5 neutrals and someone with 4 supports and 4 opposes. 22:48, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reason why not. One oppose vote per person should be fine.--
 * Poor Ajr, redundancy allows more members of the cabal --  Random Time  22:50, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * But more people in a cabal makes it less of a cabal, or so experience would say. More of something makes it less of a bit deal, thus detaching some value from it since it is more common. Further allowing new ops/+Fs by some sort of community discussion will make this even less of a cabal, which is a good thing. 22:54, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict.) I don't think voting is the best option. I don't think someone winning by one vote is considered a consensus, especially if there're are good reasons given for why the person short of one vote is the better candidate and not as much for the person who won by one. But I think if someone wins a vote by a high margin, consensus is clear. e.g. If 99% of people are in favour of something it's a clear consensus and if 51% are in favour and 49% are against, it's not a clear consensus. If we are going to make this a vote, I'd say instead of voting for one person, people should vote either in favour or against each candidate. Candidates who get more than 80% support, get +F, candidates who get less don't. If nobody gets more than 80%, then whoever gets the highest gets +F. If too many people get higher than 80%, raise the bar to 90%. -- Deltaneos (talk) 22:52, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) We really should've sorted out the voting system before we voted, throw the book at the person who started the poll. I agree with delta --  Random Time  22:53, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Great idea, Deltaneos. That sounds even better than one support and one oppose. 22:54, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ill throw a book at you RT. Sheesh, I was just trying to make a nice democratic voting system. Go ahead and do it your way you socialists :).--
 * How about User:Randomtime/votetable as a voting idea? Any more candidates to add? Thanks for the complement Godisme --  Random Time  23:03, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * How about removing some bureaucracy and just going with Deltaneos' idea? I really don't see the benefits of max 3 support and 3 oppose... 23:12, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * My thinking of that is you have to express a preference, and stops people voting for absolutely everyone --  Random Time  23:13, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed. -- 23:19, October 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's necessary to restrict it to three support and three oppose. What's wrong with people giving their opinion on each candidate? If there were ten RfAs on a wiki, I don't think it would be fair to restrict people to only comment on six and only be allowed to support up to three and oppose up to three. -- Deltaneos (talk) 23:39, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know if I'm allowed to vote, but I show up every so often. Anyways, this vote is showing basically the results I agree with and what most people think. You got 4 good respected moderators listed here, and then there is the rest (not saying I don't like the rest). The only way anyone else would win is to make the voting more messy and less fair. Live with the results. 4 mods. Devilmanozzy  (Talk Page)  04:53, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a vote for +F (founder/channel owner), not mods/ops. -- 04:58, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * I am sticking with my three votes. :) Devilmanozzy  (Talk Page)  05:02, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think this is a very poor way to make decisions. Have everyone vote on everyone, even if it includes neutrals. Cook Me Plox 06:23, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

The new voting system
Because we can't agree on anything, let alone a system so we can agree on something Max 3 support votes and 3 oppose votes, can't vote for self. Votes are tallied at the end (whenever that is) Please only vote if you are a #wikia regular(have a noticeable presence on the channel).