User talk:Jimbo Wales

(cleaned out old talk.)

Wiki administrator Ragib misusing administrative power, need urgent help
I am a wiki fan and editor also. May I draw your attention regarding one Wikipedia Administrator Ragib who abuses administrative powers in a ruthless manner which will tarnish image of wikipeida policy?

I have started to contribute in wikipedia for couple of months ago and thinking to apply for wiki Adminship. But a dispute arose from a bio page of Mukhlesur Rahman Chowdhury, I became victim of one of one wiki administrator Ragib. I have sent him an email to Ragib on 11/30/2009 to mitigate the problem in an orderly and civil manner (attached). But he became furious within 2 day2 (2 & 3 December) and started tagging and deleting all of my edited works one by one. He is misusing administrator power. Please review his 2 days activities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Ragib http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=20091202185946&target=Ragib Within a day he also managed his 2 disciples Aditya_Kabir and Niaz in his racketeering. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Aditya_Kabir http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Niaz My works were stable for couple of months and Mr. Ragib didn’t raise any question. But after the communications starts he couldn’t remain `cool head’ which is a basic principle of wiki editors, as I know. Please check the misused of administrator power in the following pages: Kazi Shamsul Hoque,Sureswar Darbar Sharif,Mukhlesur Rahman Chowdhury, Habiganj District‎, Mohammad Shamsul Alam, List of people from Shariatpur, Gosairhat Upazila, Lakhai Upazila, Dasherjangal, Weekly Prekshit. Here you will see how impatience he is. He is adding templates one after another, within one or two hours Aditya kabir and Niaz is cheering on deleting it. Is it a place of foul play? My hunch, they will delete all my works with in a short time if this complain in not taken care rapidly. --(Mizan1947 14:59, December 4, 2009 (UTC))

Conduct elsewhere incompatible with adminship: Mr. Ragib is also announcing how neglectly he abuses his power of administrator in his personal blog. http://bongobani.blogspot.com/ It is in Bengali language. I think you will judge it is compatible with the policy or not.

Not rationale: Ragib has cleared Ram Thakur with one reference. But with 2 references he has tagged my article Jan Sharif Shah Sureswari (R.A.). Though he has cleared Faridpur_District, Comilla-District, Munshiganj_District notable people, but deleted my works in the pages of Sylhet District, Dasherjangal, Gosairhat Upazila, Habiganj District, Lakhai Upazila. His point is those who have no wiki-bio can’t be in the notable list of a particular area. What a lame excuse! It seems he is not a rationale man. He is using his excuse arbitrarily.

Politically biased: Finally, Ragib, Aditya, Niazm and me all came from Bangladesh. There is a bipartisan politics in our country. Moreover, most of the people are divided into two groups. One is Bangladeshi nationalism which believes Ziaur Rahman is there leader. And the others are followers of Belgali nationalism, who believe Sheikh Mujibur Rahman is their leader. Unfortunate, I see Mr. Ragib has not apply his axe on any of my edits that belongs a party (Awami League). Example, Abdur Razzaq (politician), Tofael Ahmed, Sheikh Rehana etc. But those he targeted are from the reverse camp, example Mukhlesur Rahman Chowdhury, Kazi Shamsul Hoque, Mohammad Shamsul Alam. Ragib has openly worked for the Awami League as he is seen openly trying to show clean image of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assassination_of_Sheikh_Mujibur_Rahman). He writes about a controversial issues: “This information is significant as Mujib was the Father of the Nation, and the leader-in-absentia of the liberation war. Therefore, the information is quite relevant and significant. Thank you. --Ragib 23:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)” and his son Sheikh Kamal (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sheikh_Kamal&diff=328534908&oldid=328327292). On the contrary He and his follower Aditya is adding corruption para in the Page of Tarique Rahman (son of Ziaur Rahman) with a single reference where all his cases are in the court.

Now I am leaving all for judgments.

Request for interview
The Wikia community has requested that you be interviewed in a future edition of Wikia's community newsletter, The Daily Edit. Please reply saying if you would like to be interviewed or not, and we'll contact you at a later date. Happy editing! -- 20:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Happy wikimania Jimbo : go and have fun in Asia ! Wiktionary multilingual can soon transform earth into a flat world. --User_talk:Eurobas 02:49, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

A better deal for more serious topic wikia?
Hi Jimbo

I've recently set up a forum and polls on the subject of 'A better deal for more serious topic wikia?' on WikiSocial. It'd be great to get any comments you may have.

At a time when major concerns such as Google are becoming more and more interested in (and taking significant action on) topics such as the environment, climate change etc, is there a danger of Wikia looking like its getting left behind? I know you might point to investing in Green wikia, but it's specifically the issue of what wikia looks like to newcomers and juxtaposition of indiscriminate and potentially offensive advertising that really concerns me, Thanks Philralph @ sca21 08:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Do you think wikianswers will be a success?
I mean, there are sooo many questions and soo less people who answer them.. --Spazzpp2:D 01:24, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I think so, yes. I think it will take some time for the community to form, and we're looking at ways to make question-answering and merging easier. We could also make question-asking harder, although it isn't clear what harm unanswered questions cause. (Some harm, I'm sure! But it is not clear how to think about the balance.)Jimbo Wales 14:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Help!
Hi

I have a problem with a wiki I created. It takes forever to load the editing box for the main page and I can't create a page at all. And i'm also suprised to see that you founded Wikia too. Back to the problem, HELP! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! Carabera 22:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Which wiki?Jimbo Wales 06:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Videogaming. --Michaeldsuarez (Talk) (Deeds) 16:07, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Flu Wiki Vandal
Hello. The conflict page redirected me to you, but I could not contact you from the flu wiki because there is an ip block on my account, issued by you. The I.P. is 173.33.2.67, I was hoping you could lift the block or if it's on a ip range block to lower the range. I was wanting to update some info in regards to Canada but was unable too. I'm a sysop on the RuneScape Wiki, if you choose to contact me there too it would be more convenient (my talk page). Thanks very much. Bonziiznob 16:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I have a big problem. sir
A user told my full name in public.

I told him to tell nobody my name but since a block fight, he has told 30 users on Club Penguin Wiki.

Please Ban him.....

-- Spongebobrocks09 Chat with The Spongemiester 20:48, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Closing wiki
Hi Jimbo,

How can I request my wiki to be closed?

Hello (this is not spam)
Dude, you are like a king to me! I love wikia and wikipedia. Thanks for starting this whole thing i really appreciate it. And by the way, are you on any wikis in particular? I mean you've gotta be interested in something. If you want to see my real user page, see Pac-Man Wiki the first wiki i was on. Thanks for creating this again! See you around! The Alternative Pac-Man ~ PBCZ!!! ~ Hey man!

When a 3 year old is asked about monsters
Hello, I noticed your "Hey this is great" comment about WikiTubia. I have now made an article for When a 3 year old is asked about monsters. You may look at it here. I felt bad that no one made the article so I did. :) I am planning on making an article for the other video edition. :) Jump Guru 02:27, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Your welcome. :) I also made an article for the other one, which you can view here. :D So how have you been doing Jimmy? I also like helping on Wikipedia alot. You made a really great website. :) Jump Guru 19:32, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Norwegian Uncyclopedia design fix
Hi Jimbo, such an honour it is to talk with you! Can you please change the design on Ikkjepedia, a Norwegian version of the Wikipedia parody Uncyclopedia to look like all other Uncyclopedias? I want to change it now, before ikkjepedia.org be a hit. All other versions of Uncyclopedia have monobook skin except from Ikkjepedia. It's not funny. I think you are the best one to talk about with this. Mr. Floyd 19:56, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

I don't really know anything about that, I would recommend asking Angela, Sannse, or someone else on the community team! Jimbo Wales 15:41, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of Doghouse diaries by
Hi Jimmy,

A few days back I had contributed my first article on wikipedia (The DogHouse Diaries), a popular webcomics which surprisingly didn't have a wiki entry. To my astonishment I found that the article was deleted hours after I posted it. The reason for deletion being lack of citations in the article.

I do understand citations to be important in articles which are more academic in nature (which falls into buckets of technology, science, sociology, philosophy etc). However (by my understanding of what wiki should be (and I know that an unknown individual is not qualified enough to make such statements, still)) there are certain things for which an immediate citation (at the time of creation of the article) shouldn't be mandatory. The mere fact that there are thousands of visitors to a webcomic everyday, or there are millions of followers to a band (which hasn't yet been cited in any scholarly article) should be enough a reason for it not being disqualified as wiki entry.

I know I am insignficant individual to give you any advice, but I wish that wiki moves above religiously followed commandments and uses more humane discretions while deleting articles. After all its an effort by millions of contributors and shouldn't merely be designed to appease a few in the academia. It doesn't matter whether we can use an entry from wiki as citation, but it matters that wiki becomes a storehouse of all possible information.

In hope of an understanding reply.

Regards,

Shashi

Wikia email verification error
Hi ya. I am getting errors when trying to verify my email. See: http://pastebin.com/m2109d0f1. Please reply me at my Wikipedia talk page at Wikipedia:User_talk:Tyw7. --Tyw7 12:47, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Wikia error
I'm having problems implementing my main image (the one in the top left corner). The latest image I uploaded did not display! This is the Wikia having problems: http://tyw7.wikia.com/wiki/My_Wiki --Tyw7 12:51, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Wikia control and ownership
Hello Jimmy Wales. Thanks for letting me know via Wikipedia talk that this is a fine place to contact you. This talk page looked inactive lately, and so I wasn't sure.

Are you the majority owner of Wikia? If not, then who? Or is it a group of people or shareholders?

I am a bureaucrat on a wiki here. Are you (and/or other owners) aware of the chaos at Wikia right now? Wikis are leaving. I don't believe it is just the normal chaos and grumblings of a skin change. I am thinking of leaving too, or at least creating fork(s). --Timeshifter 01:42, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

Hi! I'm a board member and shareholder (though not the only shareholder), but that isn't really particularly relevant. I have influence here. I've been talking to staff daily, and talking to community members, to try to understand. They've made some big changes to try to resolve some of the issues that people have had, and I am confident that we'll all continue to work together to do things in the right way. Please feel free to email me at jwales@wikia.com anytime. I'm most interested in things that constitute real actionable bug reports and requests, rather than general rants that leave me unsure what people want me to do. Be specific, and I'll do what I can.

It is my general belief that some complaints are valid and need to be addressed. And also that some complaints are harder to deal with because they are really minority viewpoints (loudly expressed). I think the most important thing is that we all Assume Good Faith (no one is trying to do anything bad to anyone, and obviously wikia doesn't want people to leave!) and see how to move things forward effectively.

Because I'm in a season of major major travel for Wikipedia, email is best!--Jimbo Wales 18:35, October 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply! I just got notice in my email that there was a reply to this thread. I guess email notification concerning followed pages is currently slow.


 * I think I will reply here rather than email. Email is too limiting when trying to cover detailed issues. For example;


 * Here are the 2 most significant issues (with forum threads) that remain concerning the wiki I work on:


 * Content space needs to be wider:
 * Forum:Main Page looks great in Oasis due to lack of sidebars


 * Multilevel nested site navigation (as in Monaco) is much better than site navigation in Oasis:
 * Forum:Can sidebar site navigation be returned in a show/hide box?


 * The short version explaining the most significant issues to me is here:
 * Talk:Transition map


 * "My Tools" at the bottom of the page is a poor substitute for Monaco's nested site navigation. My Tools is very inconvenient to use. Even after I put in some tools of my choosing. It does not have submenus, and it can only hold a limited number of tools. Otherwise tools are covered by the top of the page if there are too many tools. If one goes to the very bottom of the page even more tools are covered. So one has to carefully place the page by scrolling before clicking my tools; in order to see the tool one wants. I can't put in all the tools I want due to these limitations.


 * Site navigation is now scattered all over the page. In Monaco I could put everything I wanted in the nested sidebar navigation in multi-level menus of my choosing. I never had to go the bottom of the page. I could click the home key to get to the top of the page at anytime to find site navigation and the table of contents. So could all of the readers, not just registered users.


 * My wiki: http://cannabis.wikia.com
 * --Timeshifter 01:21, October 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * A later note. My Tools doesn't show up on all pages. For example; while I am editing this talk page I don't see it anywhere. There is no floating toolbar while editing. The floating toolbar is problematic for other reasons. If one searches on a page (browser edit menu, find), then the toolbar often covers up what is being searched for. --Timeshifter 03:49, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

Question
Have you seen this? 71.204.179.150 14:53, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

Looks like a blank page, did you make a mistake with the link?--Jimbo Wales 18:36, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, he did mean Forum:Anti-Wikia_Alliance. You should really take a look at this. Many people are sick about Wikia's greed and decisions which they hadn't voted about | CartoonistHenning 19:26, October 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * No, he probably means . I fixed the link. Hi Jimbo! DP 19:33, October 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * That is insane! Did you notice how many of the major wikias are leaving to find new host? With every single person hating the new skin most passionately, and I not seeing anyone who wasn't staff actually saying anything good about it, why are they forcing everyone to use it? Everything looks a mess.   D r e a m Focus  08:41, October 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * It isn't true that only staff are saying good things about it! Lots of people are saying good things about it - it was designed specifically to increase usability and participation and early indicators are that it is working quite well at that. One wiki wrote about a huge increase in new users, which is not surprising since the skin resolved many usability issues in the old skin. The new skin isn't perfect, to be sure, but nothing ever is... and we'll continue to iterate the design to keep improving things. If you have specific things that you don't like, please email me and I will take a look.--Jimbo Wales 16:14, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * If so many people were leaving(as seen in the link), it can't be that well loved. Why not give people the option of choosing? Even have an option where the viewers could load it up the way they wanted. That'd solve the problem. Choose Facebook or Wikipedia format. Having to scroll to the bottom of the page, and click my tools, to get to the button to click to see the "history" of the page to see what changes have been made, makes things more complicated. Why not let all wikia users vote on which option they prefer?  D r e a m Focus  23:03, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * That was one of my main questions early in the process: can we support both? And the answer is, no we can't, because the new skin is not just a look but contains significant new features, etc., such that it is not really possible to support both skins. Remember, we aren't a huge company with thousands of employees - we're small.
 * That was one of my main questions early in the process: can we support both? And the answer is, no we can't, because the new skin is not just a look but contains significant new features, etc., such that it is not really possible to support both skins. Remember, we aren't a huge company with thousands of employees - we're small.


 * :: Having said that, there is no reason why anything bad should happen in the new release. You've got a specific request here: "Having to scroll to the bottom of the page, and click my tools, to get to the button to click to see the 'history' of the page to see what changes have been made, makes things more complicated." Let me look into that for you, ok? (As a side note, I don't think the new skin looks anything like facebook! Nor did the old one look like Wikipedia! :-))--Jimbo Wales 01:31, October 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I looked into this, and it seems you are mistaken about where the history link shows up:
 * "The toolbar floats on the page, so he shouldn't have to scroll to get to My Tools. There is also a history link in the menu that appears when hovering on the last contributor link in the page header."
 * Is that helpful? (To give you credit, I didn't know this either, but that's just a matter of getting used to the new placement of things - and recognizing that the new placement was done based on user studies so that - barring any mistakes which might have been made, which is of course possible - things are now easier rather than harder.)--Jimbo Wales 02:06, October 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * It doesn't work like that on all pages. Depends on which background color there is. See link below in my other post for example. That's just a bug though, not something done on purpose, so no complaints. On my Taylor Swift wiki it was like that on all the pages earlier today, before I switched the theme designer from Creamsicle to normal background white color.  D r e a m Focus  06:50, October 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * It doesn't work like that on all pages. Depends on which background color there is. See link below in my other post for example. That's just a bug though, not something done on purpose, so no complaints. On my Taylor Swift wiki it was like that on all the pages earlier today, before I switched the theme designer from Creamsicle to normal background white color.  D r e a m Focus  06:50, October 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi Jimbo! I use Linux, and it seems the new skin is incompatible with that, but I've been able to revert to the old one. Is it true that the new skin will be forced on everyone by the 3rd November? If so is there a reason for the change or a forum to report bugs? I've pretty much abandoned one wiki because they implemented liquid threads which makes my browser crash, and it would be a pain if Liberapedia became unusable or had to migrate. Urban Peasant 12:48, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * The new skin is absolutely compatible with Linux - many of our developers use Linux on the desktop. So the problem you are seeing must be specific to some browser or other. Can you be specific with your browser version so I can ask someone to look into it and fix it? Thanks! --Jimbo Wales 16:14, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Any chance of getting Wikipedia templates to work on Wikia?
Certain templates used quite frequently on Wikipedia, do not work on Wikia. The various template Infobox do not work at all. I've mass imported thousands of articles from Wikipedia, grabbing all those in various categories related to the wikia's subject, and found that these templates don't work. Having to go through to each and every single article and change it is unlikely. I've talked to various staff about this, no one having a solution, some trying to fix it but not able to do so. Why not just copy over the open source code used for Wikipedia, and make it work here? Can you order one of the programmers to have a look at that?  D r e a m Focus  23:09, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

I can't order people around, and anyway that isn't my style. What I can do is ask about it. Can you give me more information - can you give me these things:

1. A link to a template at Wikia

2. A link to the same template at Wikipedia

3. An example page on Wikipedia where it works.

4. An example page on Wikia where it doesn't work.

In this way, I can look at it for myself and be able to give a proper explanation to someone, rather than going "Please fix the templates!"

Thanks!--Jimbo Wales 01:55, October 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Notice it says Template:Infobox/Create in a red link at the top. But there is no such thing is infobox/create on any template in the Wikipedia, nor any code that calls it. Something coded in the Wikia tells it to put that there, if it doesn't recognize something.


 * 1) http://manga.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Infobox_animanga_character
 * 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_animanga_character
 * 3) http://manga.wikia.com/wiki/Asuka_Langley_Soryu
 * 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asuka_Langley_Soryu

Notice how on the X-Men: God_Loves, Man_Kills wikia page the format is messed up, and to find the toolbar you have to scroll down? Plus it has a different background color than the rest of that wikia, strangely enough.  D r e a m Focus  06:42, October 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) http://manga.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Infobox_graphic_novel
 * 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_graphic_novel
 * 3) http://manga.wikia.com/wiki/X-Men:_God_Loves,_Man_Kills
 * 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men:_God_Loves,_Man_Kills
 * That is odd! Now the toolbar is following like it is suppose to. Still, there is a different error with the stuff that is suppose to appear at the top right, ending up at the bottom. And why would it automatically assign one background color to a single page, with every single other page there a different color?  D r e a m Focus  09:34, October 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Update! Turns out there was an automatic bot that kept resetting all the templates I imported from Wikipedia, to a crappy version that hasn't worked right in years. I reverted that bot, and banned it from the wiki to keep it from doing that again.  Now everything loads up just fine, except for the fact that you get Template:Safesubst: written on the top of everything.  That happens on all wikis that try to use templates that mix wikicode and HTML together according to those I talked to elsewhere.   D r e a m Focus  09:03, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed with help from others. The red link is gone now(imported a batch of hidden templates, and also made red link into a blank space).  Infobox template working fine.  Could've been made easier though.   D r e a m Focus  23:53, October 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) http://manga.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Graphic_novel_list doesn't load up right, any page that uses it having all the contents there is a horrible unreadable mess.
 * 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Graphic_novel_list on Wikipedia it works fine
 * 3) http://manga.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Vampire_Knight_chapters#Volume_list shows an example of how bad it looks when this is used
 * 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vampire_Knight_chapters#Volume_list is how it looks on the Wikipedia, with that template working.

Is there a specific place to list all the problems? That'd make sense.  D r e a m Focus  09:03, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Told my last template problem is from the fact that Wikia loads up html code as plain text. Got to find a way to change that.  D r e a m Focus  23:53, October 30, 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion to help stop racist vandalism and spam on wikis without administrators
You might respond here faster than email, so I'll post it here as well.

I just recently reverted some very racist vandalism on a wikia being promoted with an ad banner across all wikis, the one for the popular long running show Survivor. After reverting it, I got an automatic message on my talk page there saying there are no administrators.

Could you please add a banner across all wikis that don't have any active administrators, telling people there are no administrators, linking to the adoption request page for those who might want to adopt it, and also providing a link for reporting vandals and spammers? That would help a lot.

Many people might not realize they can adopt it, or know where to go to report vandals. Only an administrator or staff can block them, and use the rollback feature, plus other options of course.

I posted in the community central forum, but not sure if you or any staff will notice it. I also suggested while there, perhaps having a bot go through all abandoned wikis and contacting the most active editors from the past year, who have made a certain minimum number of edits of course, and asking them to consider adopting it, and linking them where to go.  D r e a m Focus  01:46, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

I got your email as well, and I think this is a good idea, but of course it will take some effort. Someone has to create a script for finding wikis without active administrators and then post to qualified recent users of those wikis to ask if they want to be admins. And then some human needs to look at all the resulting requests to make sure we aren't just giving adminship to some annoying person who exhausted the patience of the admins of a small wiki and chased them off or whatever. This will take some effort, so it can't happen overnight unfortunately. (If I had a magic script-writing wand, I'd do it right now!)--Jimbo Wales 01:59, October 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I also think that something needs to be done about this. I am very concerned that the "Report a problem with this page" feature has been dropped as part of Wikia's new look (the only problem that I have with the new look, by the way). I have decided to stop editing five Wikia sites that are not actively administered because I believe they'll soon be filled with new pages, all of them junk and not the kind of thing I want to be associated with.


 * There are a lot of unadministered wikis out there that I believe will soon get filled with obscene vandalism and people hawking Viagra knock-offs in Russian. This will make Wikia look bad. It will make it look like a wall that you can just scrawl anything you like on.


 * It's fine by me if it takes some time to resolve this problem as long as it's solved eventually.


 * I'm delighted to hear about the meeting on Monday morning, by the way. I hope that this issue can be brought up then. Thank you, Mr. Wales, for giving me a constructive hobby and many hours of enjoyment in the forms of Wikia, Wikipedia and its related projects.Simon Peter Hughes 07:34, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

Vector
Hi Jim, first of all, thanks for giving Wikipedia to the world, your name will be remembered for ever. Now, as you have probably seen, most of users don't like Wikia's new skin. I'm not saying it is bad, at all, there are some good features. But some just don't. The best solution would be to give it as an optional choice between Wikia and Vector. With ads and all your supporters, I don't think there's a problem with money. Please, wikis are leaving. When a company doesn't listen to their costumers, they fail. Please. You used to support both Monaco and Monobook. Believe me, I've gone through this, when you don't hear your costumers, you fail. I'm please asking you in behalf of every user in Wikia not to eliminate the great work you've done, but to add also Vector. --Zumanity 02:17, October 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * It simply isn't true that most users don't like Wikia's new skin. Many are finding it to be an amazing improvement, as it was designed to be. A few people don't like it, and some of the objections are valid and being worked on. But let's not exaggerate the situation. :)


 * As I mentioned above, I think it is impossible to support Vector, and in any event Vector is already far behind where we are in terms of features and usability, and it will likely fall further behind in the coming months and years. Vector is a decent skin for Wikipedia, where there are very different concerns about usability.


 * I absolutely agree with you about listening to customers, of course. I'm here to offer my services to the community in much the same role that I play at Wikipedia - I'm not a member of day to day staff at the Wikimedia Foundation, and I'm not a member of day to day staff at Wikia. That leaves me free to advocate on behalf of the core editing community while at the same time looking for ways forward that are beneficial to everyone.


 * Here's my philosophy - sometimes you have to compromise. But a "compromise" generally means that neither side gets quite what they want. For that reason, I don't really think "compromise" is usually the best answer. The best answer is usually "collaboration" - finding a way for both sides to end up better than they were before.


 * In this case, some people have framed this as "Wikia versus the community" - that conflict makes no sense to me, and doesn't reflect how I see the overall situation here. It is a lot more complicated than that, and a lot more interesting in terms of opportunities to innovate and make everyone more happy. This is "some elements of the community, who like things a certain way" versus "other elements of the community, who want to see progress and change".


 * Having said that, I don't want to minimize legitimate objections. Some things are just not where they need to be. That's fine, and something I want to focus attention on. What's broken? What needs fixing? What ideas do you have for improvement... radical improvement, not just "let's stick with what we have" but rather improvement along the lines of "this is a revolution - this is nothing less than the complete upending of centuries of top-down publishing to put control in the hands of the people". That's what gets me excited.


 * Tell me what needs fixing, and I'll give it an honest look and I'll advocate for you. But keep in mind that not everyone agrees on everything, that sometimes we can find a solution that is better for everyone, and sometimes we have to strike a compromise. It's all worth it in the end, so let's work together as friends. :)--Jimbo Wales 02:36, October 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * P.S. I'm asking for a specific answer to your specific question about Vector. What I am asking is whether we could let people choose Vector or even Monaco or even older Wikipedia skins if they want - with the caveat that they are not supported and won't have all the latest functionality. It should be obvious why we can't support them as the default (logged out) view. And it might be the case that we can't support them even for logged in users who opt into them, even though there will be reduced functionality. But I have asked for you.--Jimbo Wales 02:42, October 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Jim, wow. This is the first amazing answer I see from someone from the staff, and I have to thank you. The staff has been saying "Too bad", "We will improve", etc. You gave me a concrete good answer. Ok, now, back to topic, I would love to work and talk to you as friends, in the first place. I check the community central daily. As so many, many wikis. I have to be honest, without being disrespectful. 80% of the comments have been negative. Seriously. Just check the comments of the Staff's blogs. It works for many, specially new ones. But as most of them don't, making skins optional is the best option, don't you think?


 * If Vector is far behind features and usability, why do you guys use it in Wikipedia? It's brand new! And looks great! If Wikia is better, Wikipedia could use it, including article comments and badges, and see the mess it will become ;)


 * Following your logic, what was wrong with Monaco? What was broken? I'm not saying change it just because we want. Several features (the bar at the top, spotlights, article comments, badges, image attribution, shoutbox gone, etc.) that users dislike are there. I'm trying to give you a solution, letting Wikia been optional.


 * About Vector, if a community don't like Wikia's new features, they could let Vector as an option, they know what they are getting into. Believe me, I would rather have Vector and not getting Wikia's features than using Wikia. Why couldn't you support it for anons? As I said, we would know we won't get the new functions.


 * I deeply hope they let us Wikia as a choice. Thanks in advance, and thanks for listening to me, --Zumanity 03:05, October 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Err... yeah. No offense, but I've met approximately three people who like the new skin, and ten to fifteen who harbor a mild dislike toward it. The rest pretty much hate it. - Is drak  thül  03:15, October 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, anyone who has complaints can bring them to me. I just now scheduled a meeting for 9:30AM Monday morning California time to talk to staff. Whatever you have, bring it to me here. I should emphasize: I'm looking for innovation that makes everything better for everyone, but I'm also ok but disappointed if all we can get to is compromise. (Read up above for what that means.) The key thing to understand is that we have to balance the needs of everyone, and it won't be easy.--Jimbo Wales 03:58, October 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's fair. However, I'd like to know what the needs of Wikia are (id est, the reasons that the change is being made). - Is drak  thül  04:15, October 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, of course, you can't make everyone happy. My solution would be keeping Oasis as the default skin and Vector as optional, but not only for individual users, but for an entire wiki. Vector is the best format of a wiki, not Wikia. Wikia has lost sight of what it means to be an encyclopedia. What you created, Jim, has become a game, with article comments, spotlights, blogs, badges, etc. Oasis is destroying what it means to be a wiki, in favor of "community". If you want to keep the community happy, having Vector as a choice, with previous knowledge that you won't get the new features.


 * If there's just no way to keep Vector as a choice, in the least case, I can suggest some improvements for Oasis. First of all, the fixed width should be deleted, as well as the huge banner to promote Wikia. Also keep the search bar active on talk pages, and remove the image attribution. The recent wiki activity box is completely unnecessary, that's what recent changes used to be for. Image on this wiki box? Just, no. Those two boxes take huge ammount of width. See here for example, wasted space. Perhaps if they could be in line with the text, it might be less bearable, but still, they are unnecessary when the same information can be accessed on a Special page, when needed. The dropdown menus are fancy but not highly usable. They have optimized Wikia, for readers. Things are not so simple now for people who edit content regularly. Tools are harder to find. It takes two pageloads just to access the recent changes list! They're trying to make this false illusion of community, when thats not what an encyclopedia is all about. Wikis are all about information. You haven't made it more difficult to access this information, but you have changed the format that we've been so use to for so many years. The expression comes to mind "If its not broke, don't fix it." Keep in mind, I'm not opposed to change, but is this really necessary? --Zumanity 04:48, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) "The best answer is usually 'collaboration' - finding a way for both sides to end up better than they were before."

Choices galore makes for great collaboration. But if I had to choose I would choose Vector as an option for the default skin for all users (both registered and unregistered) in the wiki where I am an admin. Vector requires MediaWiki version 1.16. It does everything I want:
 * Detailed site navigation via nested links in the sidebar.
 * It is not a narrow fixed width.
 * Admins could set a flexible width up to a maximum width of say, 1280 pixels wide, via CSS.

Some MediaWiki installations with version 1.16 or higher:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Version
 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Version
 * http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:Version

Note the open/close arrows in the sidebar for Vector. Wikia is not using MediaWiki version 1.16 yet:
 * http://www.wikia.com/Special:Version --Timeshifter 05:44, October 30, 2010 (UTC)

Innovation
See and my later replies. That covers my basic needs.

Now for the wild innovation that would excite a lot more people:


 * The end of "one-size fits all." More choices. But within a single skin since that is all Wikia can afford.
 * A single skin with maximum customization for each wiki. The wiki can choose fixed width or flexible width, or any combination thereof. I prefer a fluid width up to a maximum width I can set. The wiki sets content space width, sidebar width, etc.. It can choose to do without sidebars. All of this is possible within a single skin by customizing CSS and JS. The main thing Wikia controls is the ability to place the necessary ads it needs.
 * Ability to create wikis with one "owner". Owner decides who to pass control to. If the owner bails, and doesn't pass ownership on to anybody, then the wiki can go back to standard mode where it can be adopted.
 * Ad placement choices along the lines of how Google blogs work:
 * https://www.google.com/adsense/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=43869


 * All ads must be within borders, and captioned "Ad". Similar to how Google always makes it clear what are sponsored ads, and what are genuine search results.
 * Ability of any wiki to go ad-free if the wiki pays Wikia enough money (based on monthly page views).

The two main blog sites (Wordpress.com and Google's Blogspot.com) offer many fixed-width and flexible-width options for many free blogs. Both blog sites get more page views than Wikia. Alexa worldwide traffic rankings:


 * 202. http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/wikia.com
 * 19. http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/wordpress.com
 * 8. http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/blogspot.com

The Blogspot.com rank number of 8 means that only 7 sites get more daily page views. I believe this is an indication that free hosting with in-depth customization is very popular. --Timeshifter 18:37, October 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I forgot to mention integrated, interwiki global watchlists. That single innovation could greatly expand usability of all wikis, not just Wikia. --Timeshifter 22:11, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Not a skin question
Hi Jimbo.

I know it's not a "happy-day" situation for Wikia if some community (let's take ~20 authors, made 1/3 of edits alltogether) decides to leave. But wouldn't it be fair to let them at least place a sitenotice about that, so that visitors can make a choose: stay at Wikia or follow the authors.

Thanks. 05:42, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

No, I don't think so.--Jimbo Wales 17:56, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

Disregard for user community
The real problem is not whether this skin is better than that skin. It is the authoritarian control being imposed on wikis where people thought they had a community. This is what many of us have seen:
 * 1) Come and put your wiki at wikia.com; free hosting; established by Jimbo and Angela so you can be confident you won't be screwed.
 * 2) Wikia needs revenue, so adverts will be displayed.
 * 3) Wikia has decided on a new skin with 660 pixels fixed width for content, a large "click me" top banner, a large right sidebar with fluff, and a floating toolbar at the bottom that covers the last content line (when using the browser to search, the toolbar covers the search hit), and other non-wiki enhancements like image uploader credits.

Naturally we did not welcome (2), but it is obvious that revenue is needed to maintain the site, so the adverts are fine (so long as yucky ones are removed).

It is the "we control you" contempt of (3) that has highly irritated many of us. I understand how screwed we are, because all the content that we have created is "owned" by Wikia in the sense that we can't remove it, and because of our work, Wikia now has the Google rankings such that forking a wiki is an assured failure.

Look at what happens when a big wiki stands up to Wikia: WoWWiki community has moved to http://www.wowpedia.org/ and WoWWiki gets a special skin with a larger width.

Here is an incomplete list of wikis where people are trying hard to move away from Wikia: Forum:Anti-Wikia Alliance/linkdatabase

We knew from the beginning that Wikia was a commercial business, so our naivety is our fault. But we do not have to like it when Wikia's friendly welcome becomes a deadly embrace. JohnBeckett 07:32, October 25, 2010 (UTC)

"Deadly"? That kind of rhetoric is pretty extreme and doesn't acknowledge the popularity of the new skin with some segments of the community. No one is being killed here. :) Framing this as "Wikia versus the community" isn't consistent with the actual facts - some people are mad about it, but lots of people like it and we are seeing big jumps in participation and user interaction/satisfaction. (I am pushing the staff to hurry as much as they can to share the data with me, and you.) The changes were made for good reasons - based on real research into user needs and preferences. One of the things people seem to be missing is that the changes are not about revenue primarily - they are about usability.Jimbo Wales 14:22, October 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is completely understandable. My only proper qualm is over the lack of submenus in the new theme. In my opinion, the lack of these in the... I suppose you'd now call it a top-bar will prove a large annoyance for us on my primary wiki - as it makes navigating a lot harder with the amount of pages we maintain. Do you think that submenus could be worked into Oasis?  Helloher  (Death is not my phone number)  15:12, October 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't have the desire to go through the hassle of forking my wiki unless nothing changes in the next few months. But if nothing changes concerning this new "one-size-fits-all" attitude of Wikia, and crippled site navigation, then many wikis will fork over time if some open-minded wiki farms are found with enough server capacity, staff expertise, and CSS/JS customization. I already have a private server offer. I am sure Wikia will survive in any case. I don't know if it will thrive though.


 * The new skin, just like the old skin, is fine. If you say user interaction has been improved, then that is fine. But it is not the issue for me, and many others. I don't really care what skin is used as long as I can deeply customize the width and the site navigation. I am hoping that my initial faith in you Jimbo, and Angela, is supported by what you two and Wikia management do the next couple months. My loyalty is to the quality of my wiki first, though, in any case. I am not worried about Google finding a new wiki. I have created mirrors of my non-wiki sites several times over the years, and Google finds them and sends lots of traffic to them in only a few months. The cannabis wiki is getting around 19,000 page views a month according to Quantcast. My happiness in page layout causes me to edit more. Throttle my choices, and I get bored and fork. --Timeshifter 22:33, October 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * It wouldn't be so bad if y'all had given your users a choice. Ads are fine (not garish ones). And, don't pretend like this change is for usability. When you have to look at the page for 5 minutes to find the history, follow/watch, and edit links... well, that's not very usable now is it? Also, the fact that y'all won't give WoWWiki their rightful domain name and intend to continue using it to draw revenue tells me just how greedy you are. (By "you" and "y'all", I mean Wikia as a whole, not necessarily you personally.) -- EGingell Talk,WoW Pedia 19:37, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would just like to butt in for a second and say that my issue is not advertisement or skin related at all but the policy of keeping a dormant copy of WoWWiki alive and not allowing the community to take its domain with it when it leaves. What purpose does this serve other than confusing people and causing resentment against Wikia? I know it's Sannse's job to be optimistic about the old site staying active, but I implore you to consider the reality of the situation - this is turning people such as myself against the company. All I'm asking is for Wikia to reconsider its stance. Thanks. Plymouth 23:26, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Update
My call with Wikia staff has been pushed back due to my travels (I am in Hong Kong and going to Mumbai day after tomorrow) - entirely my fault, but this trip was scheduled months in advance. I will report back here after my call.Jimbo Wales 14:22, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Name of uploader appears beneath pictures in article!
Is there any possible way to stop that? No one wants to see the name of the uploader in the article. Happens on all wikias now. Been happening for weeks for all pictures uploaded into an article, while it doesn't happen for pictures uploaded before then. Also shows the user's icon used next to their name.  D r e a m Focus  09:11, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Complaint. Contributions can not be seen unless you go through a different page first
I enjoy clicking on "contributions" to see what I or someone else has recently done on the wikia. I do it on Wikipedia all the time, it the fastest way to find the most recent articles and talk pages I've contributed to. On Wikia now, thanks to the new mandatory skin, I have to click on my user page first or click on history of a page I worked on and then find my name and click contributions from there. The list of things you can add to your toolbar doesn't include one for contributions. :(  D r e a m Focus  09:11, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Clicking Wiki Activity button doesn't show time and date
When you clicked on recent activity previously, it listed the time and date changes were made. That was rather helpful. Now if you see something, you don't know if its been changed again since the last time you clicked on it, and thus have to keep clicking to see if anything new has happened.  D r e a m Focus  09:20, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion
Hope I'm not annoying you with too many of these things. There really should be a spot for them, and have a thing people could click on, if they want it added or not. Thumbs up, thumbs down, yes/no, whatever. Then you could gauge the opinions of the masses.

Anyway, if there was a way to tell if there were any changes at all made to a wiki, having that emailed to me, that'd be great. Other than going through and adding every single page there is to a watch list, that is. I think they once had that, long ago, but changed it. Not certain. Some Wikis are of course normally dead, it very rare to see changes on them, so this would be useful. They are dead because they are for a game that came out more than 10 years ago with nothing after it, or a cartoon that hasn't been seen since the 1980's, not because of the administrator of course. :)  D r e a m Focus  09:20, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Three equal signs for subsection isn't bolded anymore. Harder to stand out
I prefer it the old way, which is how Wikipedia does it. Looking at articles that have subsections indented from the main ones, you can really spot the headlines. Slightly bigger text, but no automatic bold.  D r e a m Focus  12:01, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just add it back to MediaWiki:wikia.css with this code
 * Rappy 19:22, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I did that on my six wikis, it working fine.  Still, why not have that as default?  A survey sent to the active staff of the 100 most visited wikis could determine which way most people preferred.  Or a poll in the community forum I suppose.   D r e a m Focus  08:04, October 30, 2010 (UTC)

Boilerplate
This is an Oct 29, 2010 boilerplate reply to me concerning some ideas sent in to Special:Contact. Emphasis added. This is just plain annoying: "what is best for Wikia. WHO is Wikia?

Google News uses detailed sidebar choices:
 * http://www.google.com/#q=wikia&tbs=nws:1

Many Commons pages have detailed sidebars:
 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Maps

Many blogs too. --Timeshifter 05:23, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * We're not trying to be like Google news, but like Facebook. They put things on the right side. They added that "like" button for Facebook while they were working on this new layout after all. Facebook is insanely profitable, so by being more like them, they believe they can bring over more people. I wonder if that'll work or not. As for the big navigation system bit, I'd like to point out that only the first items got clicked because how many valid items do you have listed on the side there? People check recent changes and most popular pages, and sometimes something linked to, but what else is there? I wonder if having smaller and fewer buttons increases how many times someone clicks one of these things. As for your question " WHO is Wikia?" the answer is simple. After a massive amount of information about all things was compiled into Wikipedia during its golden age, it developed sentience, taking on a life of its own. The government and others feared it was gaining too much power over the common folk, and thus becoming dangerous to those in power. So the evil hordes of deletionists went forth, trimming the "fancruft" from articles to remove anything of interest to those actually going there to read them, and mass deleting massive numbers of articles that had been around for years. Seeking a home for this information and the hordes of people that craved it, the Wikia came into existence. Hopefully it'll one day overtake the Wikipedia in popularity for entertainment media.  D r e a m Focus  08:18, October 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * So Wikia is the singularity? That would explain the group-mind-meld of the staff lately. ;)


 * I hope the social networking and Facebook stuff works out. I just want detailed site navigation, in addition to the very limited site navigation in the top bar. Regular visitors and editors like and need detailed site navigation on every page. --Timeshifter 17:45, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * You can change the stuff at the top to have fold down menus with links to as many things as you want. Anything that worked on the old format, can be copy pasted there. If it doesn't all fit, put it all into a fold down menu. http://gantz.wikia.com/wiki/MediaWiki:Wiki-navigation shows how I did it at one of my wikias. Just copy paste the format.  D r e a m Focus  23:57, October 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not sure what you mean by a "fold-down menu". The top bar of navigation only allows 4 menus with up to 7 links each. See:
 * http://help.wikia.com/wiki/Help:Wiki_navigation
 * Forum:Can sidebar site navigation be returned in a show/hide box?
 * --Timeshifter 01:42, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you need more than 28 links, you can add in subcategories to the list of results. You can also have them click on a page listing proper navigation, or have that on the main page, helping link to everything there, in the heart of the article.  D r e a m Focus  07:50, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * The former version allowed the use of subcategories, but this one doesn't! One more thing to complain about. And linking just seven items is rather lame for lists of character, faction, episodes, and whatnot many wikias are likely to be using. I just added a walkthrough button at the top of my game wikia. http://sidmeiersalphacentauri.wikia.com/wiki/MediaWiki:Wiki-navigation This will at least help with navigation, they having something they can click on at the top and then link them to everywhere they'll want to go in a hurry.  D r e a m Focus  08:15, October 31, 2010 (UTC)

Guestion
I know that wikia is company so I will not talk about democracy, community etc. It is normal that wikia is introducing more and more adds (company wants more money) but things happening with new skin - it is just strange. People are leaving wikias, including entire communites (for example: WoWiki, the largest wiki). And there are doing it maily due fixed content size. Not due to more ads - due to fixed content size (too large on small monitors, too small on large), design dropped over internet years ago. How fixed content size is going to increase revenue from ads reduced by forks? Whatmore after forks content created by free workforce (=editors) is staying, but broken in new layout (without people for repair as experienced editors moved)! In that way even mirroring content from new fork will be impossible! 213.134.175.225 06:05, November 8, 2010 (UTC)

ShoutWiki versus Wikia
In the last few days I had to recommend ShoutWiki to someone who I thought could use the creative, collaborative tools of a wiki for his projects and activism.

The reason was that I believe he would chafe under the current, restrictive nature of Wikia customization. Also, in my opinion, he needs final say on all things in his wiki. That includes who is allowed to edit, what edits are allowed to stand, and whether particular unregistered and registered editors are allowed to continue. Wikia, as far as I know, does not let someone start a wiki, and have total control of that wiki. ShoutWiki does. See:
 * http://www.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Wiki_types

On the other hand Wikia's newly-developing social networking tools, Facebook interaction, etc. would be extremely useful. He already has a Facebook group with lots of activity. --Timeshifter 08:56, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

The largest wikia left wikia
Mr. Wales, you said the following this month to two media outlets:


 * "We’re releasing a new version of the Wikia software wikia skin. We’re testing it on a few wikis...Currently, the most popular sites that we have are in entertainment and gaming....World of Warcraft is probably the biggest. That community has built a guide to World of Warcraft that has 80,000 pages on it. Just for that particular wiki alone, I think we see 4 to 5 million people a month."


 * "The free license part of Wikia limits our control. If the community gets mad at us, they can just leave and take the content with them. That alone keeps the relationship honest."

As you know, World of Warcraft, the site you touted to a newspaper as "the biggest" wikia, said, "with the new skin, wikia is not being honest in their relationship with us", and took "the content with them" and left.

It appears as if you meant that any wikia has the freedom to leave if wikia is dishonest, and so editors freedom to leave keeps the "relationship honest". How is the honesty between wikia and its editors when the largest wikia site abandons wikia?

Anno1404 11:29, November 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Anno1404, why do you spend your time asking Jimbo? He cares only of earning more and more money. Like all the other guys from Wikia. 12:50, November 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is it so hard to understand that hosting and supporting wikis costs money? Where do you expect that money to come from?  Without Jimbo and co., there would be no Wikia (not to mention Wikimedia) and then you all wouldn't have anything to whine about at all...  (Wait a minute, maybe that would be better?) 71.90.27.69 06:41, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

New wiki.
How can I quickly develop my project? http://igroencyclopedia.wikia.com/ — 16:33, December 23, 2010 (UTC)

RuneDot
Dear, Jimbo Wales, if you could please shut off the runescape wiki, they keey being mean to me.

You sent me a messege on my wiki

runedot.wikia.com
 * Apparently this was someone's idea of a joke. Sorry for wasting your time.   --Cook

Jimbo Wales
Jimbo Wales, tell me please: and why the English wiki is not allowed to have language prefix? --Большие гонки 18:03, February 21, 2011 (UTC)

So, you started Wikia and all of this, right? I'd like to say thank you, I love being on Wikia very much. -- I Pity The Fool. - Mr.T 22:30, March 23, 2011 (UTC)

i have a ?
can you delete my user? because i don't want to be part of wikia anymore


 * Hi. Please send your request to Special:Contact. One of us on the community team will get to it ASAP. :) - Brandon Rhea (talk) 16:22, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

Hey Jimmy,

Do you know anything about your ancestry? My name is Ryan Wales. My father, Richard Wales, and you share quite a resemblence. See for yourself! (these pictures especially)

Any feedback would be awesome!

Thanks, Ryan Wales (I emailed this to who I think is you?)

Yes, another skin question
Hi Jimbo, I've been a big fan of you for some time. I would just like to ask why Vector and Monobook were completely removed from choices of skin, despite them being quite popular skin choices in many users. This is not to say that the new Wikia Skin and Monaco should be completely removed, but shouldn't users at least be given a choice to use the skin they prefer? Mr. Anon 01:45, November 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * You have it backwards. Monobook is still available but Monaco was removed. Monaco according to staff was an expensive skin and not easy to debug. Vector has never been an option on wikia. Staff have said they may add it in the future but there are no plans to do so currently.--
 * Yeah, I keep getting the names mixed up. Still though, the fact that many users have completely left wikia because of the loss of Monaco shows that user satisfaction is important as well, right? In addition, independant wikis are able to host Monaco relatively easy, no? Mr. Anon 01:49, November 8, 2011 (UTC)