Admin Forum:What do you want to see here in Founder & Admin Central?

This is a new space...as founder & admins, what would you like to see here specifically geared towards your roles in the community. I'd love to hear everything you are thinking. I hit a few of you up on private chat (and would like to talk with more of you ;) -- but I'd like to keep this thread going so we can refer back to it. So let it rip! --Meighan http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 19:06, June 30, 2011 (UTC)

I think I'd really like to see what's worked best for founders when getting new users. And from admins, I'd like to hear how they got to the point of adminship. I'd also like to see, well, friendliness of course, but users sharing ideas with others and helping them out with the wikis they edit at, and help some wikis get a kick-off. -- Bass Japas  19:16, June 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * I like the thinking, Jazzi. --Callofduty4 19:24, June 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * BassJapas - These are great starting points and ideas. How would you like to see us implement them on our end? On your end you could create forum posts around these questions -- which would be so great to see. ;) What do you think? --Meighan http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 20:44, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm, well that would be a pretty cool thing to do, I'd just be nervous about grammatical and spelling errors ^.^;
 * And to implementing them, perhaps a forum/thread titled "Questions for the F/A" or something along those lines, with more in depth explanations about the questions, and of course, sections where people can add more questions and where users can answer those questions. -- Bass Japas  21:45, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * I also worry about grammatical errors and spelling things wrong too. ;) Ok, so let's do this. I'm actually writing a blog post about and explaining what F/A Central is that should be live tomorrow -- I will ask users to comment there and how about you post a thread here in the forum space asking what's worked best for founders when getting new users? Deal? ;) --Meighan http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 00:04, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds cool =) -- Bass Japas  00:21, July 1, 2011 (UTC)

Copyright information
Here is something I would really like to hear from the staff about. What are the rules about what non-free content we can upload to wikia? There's just stuff like "Individual communities may elaborate upon and refine requirements for file uploads." for the licensing help page. Yet massive wikis all over wikia are chock full of copyrighted images - I think the extent to which the site has recently been commercialised is stretching the limits of the fair use claim. There's no checking of what content gets uploaded - how would wikia defend themselves against a court case about this? Perhaps wikia's legal team could chime in on the blogs. What should we, as admins as founders, be doing to control non-free content being uploaded? Apparently it is "our own responsibility to understand and adhere to the license". All wordmarks & backgrounds containing copyrighted imagery surely break the rules; they are not attributed anywhere - yet all of the big wikis do it! Can we have a little clarity on wikia's position?--Acer4666 19:48, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

Most wikis don't have a don't ask, don't tell policy. As long as no copyright infringements have ever been filed against Wikia (I don't think), I don't really feel that this rule is ever taken into account on the field. --

  — Christopher Costello    Talk    Contribs    Community    20:39, July 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * I know, that's kind of my problem. Wikia is too big of a company to have that sort of policy about the material it gets all its revenue from--Acer4666 20:42, July 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV), but there is quite alot of leeway for claiming "fair use" on fan wikis. It basically works like this: if a copyrighted image is uploaded and the source is put in the file description page AND the image is used to promote the subject and not denigrate it, most copyright holders will not pursue a complaint. So, worry about the images that portray the subject negatively (beyond lore or context of the plot of a show) and don't worry too much about images that are designed to show the subject or the article or promote the subject. Sourcing is not strictly needed for practical purposes.
 * Wikia probably knows this, but can't safely and legally say that explicitly, so they are intentionally vague. Also, some wikis have different general licensing terms (not CC-by-SA). Wikia needs not get too involved in enforcement on individual wikis, otherwise the expectation that they need to police all their wikis will grow and that is probably untenable. -- Fandyllic (talk &middot; contr) 23 Jul 2011 7:48 PM Pacific


 * One little thing that might help is for members to see some form of copyright warning when performing an upload. Perhaps if there were some sort of system interface message that could appear as if by magic to guide the user … perhaps something like MediaWiki:Uploadtext … if only the Oasis skin were connected to it somehow … — Spike Toronto  20:24, July 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Very funny. Yes, I also think the upload popup should have an option controlled by wiki admins to always show the copyright warning and the license template choice. -- Fandyllic (talk &middot; contr) 27 Jul 2011 8:34 AM Pacific


 * So, is this thing on?
 * I don't like Wikia being "intentionally vague" in order to cover themselves. They are happy to preach the letter of the law over ownership of content, when it comes to contributors wanting their own work removed from the site - but on this, when it could come off negatively on them, they don't say a word--Acer4666 16:48, July 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * This thing is on. ;) I am listening as always. I have a meeting with Sannse this week and have it on my list of things to ask her, so I can bring back info to this thread (and another one that is current as well). So I'm listening, it just may not happen immediately. In the meantime, add more of your thoughts here if need be. Thanks guys and I appreciate your patience! --Meighan http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 18:45, July 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for the response - sorry I just wasn't sure if this was being ignored or anything. Good to know you are considering it, I look forward to the results!--Acer4666 19:38, July 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Basically what Fandyllic says above is right on. The copyright info is a little fluid to both protect Wikia and the users. We only intervene when a third party comes to us and expressly asks us in detailed documentation to remove something. Otherwise we do nothing unless it's obviously in bad taste and violates TOU. For the most part companies allow the use of their copyrighted images if they promote their product (what ever that may be) and are not used to slander the brand. We leave it up to each individual community to take care of what should and should not be on their wiki. --Meighan http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 23:32, July 28, 2011 (UTC)

Is that the result of the meeting with Sannse?

You see, little fluid policies don't quite cut it when Wikia is making cold, hard cash out of stuffing the website chock full of commercial advertisements. I don't see how "most companies allow it as long as it's not nasty" translates into "we can make vast amounts of money from ad revenue, on pages full of content from any copyrighted source". It's the responsibility of the admins, but wikia gets the big fat paycheck at the end of the day. love the use of the term "their wiki" in this sense, but watch that switch to "our wiki, you have no claim over it" should the admins want the content they added removed.

Do you see the problems that arrive by being vague and non-specific about this stuff?--Acer4666 00:55, July 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * (Edit conflict) That makes a lot of sense . What you are saying Meighan makes some sense. I mean, images of Chris Evans and Captain America over on that wiki certainly help to promote the movie. But, for those of us who do not operate wikis that are connected to a product, we need to be able to have the option of having Add a photo have the effect of showing the user the contents of MediaWiki:Uploadtext. It would be perfectly okay with me if it started as a little yellow bar, like with the new editor, that popped up to a full view of  MediaWiki:Uploadtext  were one to click on the yellow bar. Seems to me that that would be a good compromise between those who want few words in the Add a photo process, and those who want the full instructions and copyright info to be available. Since the techies have already managed it in the new editor, they should be able to accommodate it in a new Add a photo dialogue. Thanks for listening Meighan! — Spike Toronto  01:05, July 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Spiketoronto I think perhaps you are wanting something different to what this forum is about - if you want a technical detail of how wikia works with uploading photos, perhaps this forum is not where you should be asking. The forum is about what sort of topics we want to see in Admin & founder central - and my concern is wikia's reluctance to provide any clear stance on copyright issues with the vague justification of "it's for your own protection", or "it's your problem on your wiki", which isn't good enough in my opinion--Acer4666 16:25, July 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * You miss the point Acer. What good is it to get the the clear declaration on copyright that you seek from Wikia, if no one is ever going to see it? There is a reason why a number of us here see these two issues going hand in hand and want not only what you want, but want a mechanism — like we used to have — where image uploaders receive compliance warnings. A number of wikis here at Wikia (used to) use MediaWiki:Uploadtext not just to provide instruction, but also to ensure compliance with our copyright policies. (For examples, see here and here.) Under the new Oasis skin, these copyright compliance notices no longer appear — or are even able to appear — to the image uploader. The existence that you seek of a clear stance on copyright from Wikia, dovetails completely with the ability for them to be seen, which I and others seek. Now, if we’re going to start telling each other where to go … Smiley.png — Spike Toronto  05:00, July 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * Haha ok sorry for telling you where to go :). But I think you're trying to ice the cake before it's been baked - Yes the issues go hand in hand, but once we've got the copyright issues sorted, then we can talk about how to present them to the users. But let's not get ahead of ourselves - talking about these technical details is complicating the issue and just giving wikia extra room to avoid the question--Acer4666 09:28, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

P.S. I like the cake methaphor. I can’t wait for an opportunity to use it myself! — <font color="#DC143C" face="Garamond" size="3">Spike <font color="#000000" face="Garamond" size="3">Toronto  10:41, July 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, some of us have the copyright issues sorted on our wikis. We don’t need anything more from Wikia on that score. What we do need is for it to be presentable to uploaders again. — <font color="#DC143C" face="Garamond" size="3">Spike <font color="#000000" face="Garamond" size="3">Toronto  10:41, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

Questions living in multiple forums
I've noticed that some of the questions asked in the Admin forum also apply to the Support Requests forum, so I was planning to modify the Admin forum setup to allow questions to have a header for both forums. Unfortunately, it will require me to edit most of the existing Admin forum posts, because they use the Forumheader2 template incorrectly ("Admin Forum" is hardcoded into Forumheader2, but all the posts were created with "Admin Forum" as the first param which I want to re-use). Forumheader2 appears at the top of all admin forum posts. My plan is to make it so Forumheader2 can take parameters for other forums (up to 2 additional) and will show the navigation aid for any forum the post belongs to, so you can jump between Admin forum or the other forum in a post that shares forums.

Does that make sense? -- <span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Who?">Fandyllic (talk &middot; contr) 27 Jul 2011 8:48 AM Pacific


 * Fandyllic, thank you for running this by the thread...ok, a couple of things: 1). I am a little unclear what you are proposing -- so it would be great to get a clearer idea for me (as someone who is not super verse in techy talk ;). 2). Dopp and I are planning to break the Admin forum into specific categories -- so hold the presses on any immediate changes, please. 3). We'll need some help with this, would you like to help us and be a part of this reorg? --Meighan http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 21:00, July 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm already involved due to the Logo Creation Wiki merge, I think. But, I think I'll wait until most of the changes are done. What I'm proposing may not be necessary or will need to be re-planned after the upcoming changes anyway.
 * In the meantime, you might want to have one of your tech people look at what I said above and run a bot to fix the use of Forumheader2 in forum posts. Even if I don't make any changes, that is still wrong. -- <span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Who?">Fandyllic (talk &middot; contr) 27 Jul 2011 2:09 PM Pacific


 * Just to be totally clear, this forum post and others in the Admin Forum have the following wikitext at the top of each page:
 * From what I can tell by looking at Forumheader2, the  part is unnecessary and should probably be removed before the forum gets too many posts.-- <span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Who?">Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 27 Jul 2011 2:12 PM Pacific


 * Thing is, most of the people who come to Community Central seeking assistance, are Administrators on their home wikis. Consequently, there’s always going to be overlap between the two forum areas. Frankly, it just means extra work for us having to come here and then go there for what is essentially the same thing. I think Fandyllic is just trying to provide a second-best solution for this predictable, foreseeable problem. (First best being to just go back to one centralized forum.) Also, I am surprised we are not seeing more duplicate postings, where fairly new admins post their queries both here and over at Support Requests. Thanks! — <font color="#DC143C" face="Garamond" size="3">Spike <font color="#000000" face="Garamond" size="3">Toronto  21:34, July 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Double-check me on this, but I believe Forumheader2 was used so that the code here could be managed separately from the main community central forum headers. We rearranged the categories over there last week, and needed to do some fancy footwork with the headers at that time because the existing content complicated things. Please check with Charitwo and/or Sovq before changing headers here to make sure there aren't other considerations. Also, as Meighan mentioned, we need to reorganize here anyway. Must add categories to this forum before we can import Logo Creation Wiki. --Dopp http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 23:02, July 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * p.s. oh, i misread -- you're not asking why we're using Forumheader2 instead of Forumheader. :) Thanks for bringing this up. We do also want help with the forum reorganization from a Forum-config-savvy user. Fandyllic, are you interested in taking this on, or should I pass it back to the other users we've been working with? If you're interested, lemme know and I'll explain the categories we want to build. --Dopp http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 23:08, July 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * SpikeToronto, We knew that there would be overlap in the beginning, it's one of the reasons we think organizing will better help that in the future. Something to keep in mind is that F/A is for founders & admins to come and meet, learn, share and teach each other. Not that that doesn't happen in Community -- but here its specific to founders and admins. It's a smaller community. We're still growing and working it all out. But I am confident like most online endeavors it will take on a life of it's own and become what it will. ;) --Meighan http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 00:18, July 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * I could be wrong, but from my experience at least half the questions that appear in the Support Request forum are founders and admins looking for help. Maybe Community needs a Community-corner notification to tell visiting founders and admins to go to their forum and not the regular Support Requests one. -- <span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Who?">Fandyllic (talk &middot; contr) 28 Jul 2011 5:44 PM Pacific

Updates
If wikia is going to pretend to care about admins now, can we finally get some centralized notice of CSS and patch updates? I don't like learning about some change on the back end by finding something broken on a wiki which wasn't broken before. I have to assume that if it isn't in what you generously called a blog update we aren't suppose to know or complain about it, but it's the admins that have to clean up after you most of time, so I would like to know beforehand when i need to get my bullshit mop out. It might also be nice if community input were a little more than the mysterious and wikia hand picked "community council", since it seems everything else falls on either def ears, or isn't open for discussion. - 00:00, July 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Archduk3, I'm sorry you are frustrated. We definitely do care about admins and all users. We also appreciate your feedback. However in order for us to have a conversation that's beneficial we need to receive it in a way that is fair, considerate and in a respectful language. Please don't use abusive language. To answer your concerns, because we do not technically support CSS in our updates -- we can't know or predict how this will effect wikis that use CSS or JS. So we are unable to have a centralized notice. As you know each week we send out a technical update so users have an idea of what to look out for, what's happening, etc. If you don't want to tweak it later, we encourage you to use the tools in place, rather than use custom CSS. On another note, we have created Founder & Admin Central for admins to come and help us help you so to speak. Please feel free to utilize this space to express your constructive feedback in the forum, on my blog posts, or create your own blog posts. It's clear you have a lot of knowledge to share. Thank you! --Meighan http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 06:45, July 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Meighan, I don't think you quite understand what Archduk3 is asking for and maybe his frustration is masking the meaning. I think he wants a more detailed report of underlying CSS changes to the skin (namely Oasis) that might affect attempts by admins to customize their wikis. Right now it is all reverse-engineering and experimentation. The assumption here is that your devs are smart and they may already be making release notes with the kind of info admins want, it just isn't getting out soon enough or at all after most of these changes go live.
 * I also think he's asking for what a lot of admins would like to see, something better than the Technical Update blogs that Wikia comes out with. Don't get me wrong, as a long time admin who's worked with and butted heads with Wikia over a period of years, the last year or so has seen dramatic and impressive improvements with info and communication. The real problem is that Wikia is seen by some of the community as still repairing damage done during the Oasis changeover and for some the bar is pretty high to consider that water under the bridge.
 * Lastly, Wikia is hurt by what it has done in the past. Kirkburn and others did tremendous and detailed documentation for customizing the Monaco skin and nothing has really returned to that level for Oasis. Wikia gives the impression that they are focused primarily on inexperienced, new, and non-technical admins with the info and tools it provides while pushing off the interests of experienced and technically minded admins.
 * This is how I see it at least. -- <span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Who?">Fandyllic (talk &middot; contr) 29 Jul 2011 9:41 AM Pacific

I'm pretty sure I'm treating wikia with the same respect it's been giving me. I'm also a bit confused as to why I shouldn't voice my frustration with a host that has delusions of Facebook grandeur and does almost nothing for me beyond causing problems. Maybe if I wasn't treated as a stupid unpaid employee that should just keep his mouth shut you might get and deserve my respect. All I see right now is nothing more then pandering and empty gestures while wikia continues to "improve" my user experience by increasing the amount of overhead I have to do as an admin before I can do the things I want to do on my wiki. Thanks again for removing the red links for uncreated categories without notice, I'm sure everyone can catch a simple spelling mistake when it looks like nothing is wrong, and I know there must have been loads of people who could figure out why the link was red since they had bothered to add it. I know the tried and true method was such a problem that it had to be fixed before other pressing matters, and it's these little "gems" that truly show your level of support for the administrators. I'm sure you think I have nothing but time to navigate the mess here daily, created by the "blogs" that the software was never designed for, to find the little nuggets of technical information you dribble out, so maybe I can be forgiven for assuming you're doing nothing but trying to make a quick buck on content you didn't create and are barely supporting. So once again, can I get some centralized notice of CSS and patch updates, or is that still too much to ask? - 19:39, July 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Archduk3, to answer your specific question: "So once again, can I get some centralized notice of CSS and patch updates, or is that still too much to ask?" The answer is no. We’re not able to provide a centralized notice of CSS updates. There are two places where you (and all admins who are interested) can get info about changes to our site: the technical blog as I mentioned above and our SVN repository. I want to assure you that I hear your frustration and understand what you are asking for, however it is the tone and language that you are using that I have to ask stop. We will not tolerate nor further respond to messages that we consider overly aggressive or abusive in tone. Please be civil in all future messages. Thank you. --Meighan http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 21:24, July 29, 2011 (UTC)

"...not tolerate"!? Well, what's one more administrator blocked by the heavy hand of wikia, eh? You might want to check with someone who's been here for more then six months about that first though. The true sign of a despot has always been the silencing of critics, and I know wikia doesn't believe in radical concepts like its users being able to petition for a redress of grievances, so feel free to block me because you don't like what I'm saying, it's not like I can stop you. None of that will stop what I'm saying from being poignantly relevant, and we all know listening to only a bunch of yes men works out in the end. It's not like anything constructive ever came out of free expression, and you're the one walking away here. That said, I suggest you use this space to help your corporately appointed administrators run our wikis after blocking the rest of us who won't toe your apparently ever changing line by stifling the truth. Good day madam, and good luck, you're going to need it. - 23:39, July 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * I feel I have to support Archduk3 here. There was nothing "overly aggressive" about his post, and Meighan your threat of "non-tolerance" I believe is uncalled for and overly defensive.
 * However for balance, I think any wikia contributor that considers and refers to themselves as an "unpaid employee" or hints to some deserved renumeration they should get for their hobby (editing on wikis) has delusions of grandeur. It has always irked me when people refer to themselves as thus - you contribute because you want to--Acer4666 00:29, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

I actually tend to agree with you Acer4666, but when my host is making decisions that force extra overhead on me, as long as I uphold the trust my community put in me when I was made an admin, I reserve the right to feel like an unpaid employee, since I'm now expected to do more "work" because of decisions made by wikia employees without any community input; and I don't consider the "community counsel" to be representing any community here, since you can't apply for it and we don't elect the members. I may edit my wiki because I want to, but I think it was, and still is, a mistake to keep wikia as our hosts, and since we would most likely have to file a lawsuit to switch hosts and take our content, that alone is enough to make any interaction with this company a necessary evil at best, with the threats and disrespect just being the icing on the cake. I shouldn't have to pretend this is anything but what it is for the benefit of wikia's paid employees. If said employees don't like dealing with what their bosses decisions brought them, they can always get another job, to use the same logic. If my little complaints are enough to result in threats, they shouldn't be in any customer support job, let alone one for this company. Nothing said here even comes close to the things said over Oasis, and I'm not sorry I said them. They needed to be said, and based on all indications, they will continue to need to be said. If wikia chooses to not provide support to me, I'm fine with that, since I wasn't really getting any support from them in the first place. That's just another example of the level of support this company is willing to provide to make money off of us. - 02:14, July 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * Meighan, I went and took a look at the SVN repository. Thank you for providing the link! However, it is not so easy to find what one is looking for over there. What would be more useful for us (read, me Smiley.png) would be a weekly technical digest of CSS/JS coding changes that would accompany the executive summary issued every Tuesday by DaNASCAT/Dopp. Such a report, for instance, would have detailed the CSS changes involving the    and     elements. Then we would know exactly what elements are involved when some aspect of our wikis has suddenly changed. Similarly providing JS changes would also be useful. It’s hard to fix something that has broken on our wikis if we do not know what it is that has broken. Such a report would go miles towards remedying that. Thanks! — <font color="#DC143C" face="Garamond" size="3">Spike <font color="#000000" face="Garamond" size="3">Toronto  05:22, July 30, 2011 (UTC)