Forum:How to .. use MediaWiki:Welcome-user-page to transclude a template into a newly created user page

At one time I thought that I had this working perfectly well but either I was mistaken or perhaps something has changed about the way MediaWiki:Welcome-user-page is copied to create a new user page.


 * My goal is to have the WikiText of a new user page include the following template call:

What I am finding is that the template is being evaluated and then the evaluated content is substituted into the new user page just as though  had been used. Simple transclusion is desired because the wikitext in that template is an inline semantic query so the content is supposed to be dynamic and not static.

It makes no difference whether I use The newly created user page is created just as though  had been used.
 * http://vsk.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Welcome-user-page or
 * http://vsk.wikia.com/wiki/MediaWiki:Welcome-user-page/pushed_messages

If you have successfully done something similar then please share here.

-- najevi 04:31, January 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not possible. The system forces a substitution regardless of the methods used. -- 08:07, January 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you. That is not the advice I was hoping to read!
 * Is this a known bug or is the designed behavior deliberate?
 * If deliberate (i.e. by design) then what is the rationale?
 * -- najevi 03:32, January 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I supposed that they don't want all the users pages to update when we modify the included template. — TulipVorlax 04:40, January 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi Najevi. It was a deliberate choice to have welcome messages substituted, so that brand new users aren't confronted with  on what may be their first interaction with wiki pages.  If they try to edit their talk page to respond to the welcome, they have simple wikitext that they can learn from, rather than something as opaque as template, infobox, or semantic code.


 * I'm sorry if this limits what you can present on the welcome message, but please remember that this should be kept as simple and friendly as possible anyway -- if you'd like to present a list of things the new user can help with, perhaps you can add it to MyHome or the Community Portal or a To Do page and provide an inviting link in the welcome message instead. Good luck!  — Catherine (talk) 19:23, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Catherine for your considered response. Please be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water as you make these deliberate choices on our behalf.
 * 1) The welcome message is the subject of a different mediaWiki message: MediaWiki:Welcome-message-user
 * 2) * I agree, that welcome message at a user's talk page benefits from a "less is more" philosophy.
 * 3) The subject of this forum post is the MediaWiki:Welcome-user-page message. As you know, that is basically a template to initialize each user-page.
 * 4) * Keep in mind that in many cases the user is new to a specific community and not a complete novice to wikis. In those cases arguing the complexity of "weird template structures" is a moot point.
 * 5) * Even for the complete novice, a well designed user_page initial template will introduce the user to such concepts as (i) Section headings, (ii) bold and italic emphasis, (iii) bullet lists and numbered lists, (iv) possibly indentation or definition list and yes ... (v) a simple template call or two.
 * 6) ** After all the virtue of a wiki template is to insulate the average user from potentially complex markup code, parser functions and so on that might be contained within the template!
 * To not allow (dare I say to not trust!) the administrators of each wiki to craft a suitable template that gently introduces a new user to such features seems to me to fly in the face of that fundamental assumption of good faith that is so important to wiki culture.
 * 1) Yet another very useful MediaWiki message has also been deprecated in recent months. Quite frankly, I think that tool does (or rather did) a far better job of  introducing the wiki-novice to WikiText than the RTE can ever hope to do. I am referring to the MediaWiki:Welcomecreation message.
 * 2) * I had invested considerable thought into the preloaded content of the local forum post linked from that MediaWiki:Welcomecreation message to ensure that users who arrive brand-new to a wiki and are prompted by what they see at that wiki to create a Wikia account are immediately given their first opportunity to edit something simple and light-hearted using WikiText in a "kinder, gentler" introductory way. (See my earlier forum post here. That post remains unanswered by Wikia staff. Truly ironic that it is now considered archived!) If you care to review that WikiText primer then you can view it at w:c:vsk:MediaWiki:Welcomecreation. If you take the time to do so then I think you will agree that it is a sad thing that the complete newcomer to Wikia misses out on that introductory tutorial in WikiText.
 * 3) The apparent pattern of hand-tying continues in the Semantic MediaWiki domain here at Wikia. In the world of SMW outside of Wikia, wiki contributors enjoy such complete tool sets as the entire Semantic Bundle vs. here at Wikia we get just 3 components (SMW, SF and SD) of those 8 rudimentary SMW related extensions and just 2 out of 10 components of the utility extensions that are considered either vital support or extremely useful to the wiki developer that is using SMW.
 * 4) * Tying back to the subject of this forum post the mw:Extension:SemanticSignup is the most relevant Semantic extension but I can actually understand why supporting that at Wikia might be at odds with your pre-existing user account creation and user table framework. The trouble is that with the demise of MediaWiki:Welcomecreation and the "dumbing down" of MediaWiki:Welcome-user-page Wikia is failing to give us the hooks needed to perform some initial housekeeping chores for newcomers to a community wiki. Of course almost anything can be done with a little JavaScript but given the trend outlined here I will not be surprised if even that gets neutered in some way just a little further down the road.

In case you had not noticed I am trying very hard to suppress my growing feelings of resentment due to the unilateral and even arrogant way in which Wikia management have deemed it their duty to second guess each community's admin team as to how best to introduce a wiki-novice to each and every community wiki.
 * If you (Wikia staff collectively) wish to take such unilateral control of how that is handled at w:c:central or w:c:help or w:c:community-test then you will meet no resistance or objection from me. I simply ask that you not force feed that same solution at each and every community wiki. Please give back a modicum of responsibility to those communities that do have admins who are willing and able to handle this in a way that best matches the community audience.

If you are of the belief that "one (simple) solution fits all" then I ask you to reflect long and hard on that notion.

As much as I can appreciate the virtues of the RTE for softening the entry into wiki editing I think you are making a serious mistake if you treat the RTE as anything other than a transitional tool with a half-life of maybe a few weeks to one month. Indeed the very presence of a Rich Text Editor only serves to perpetuate the myth that WikiText is complicated and difficult to master. (I've written more about that subject in this blog post.) The impression I have is that we have suffered too many compromises in an effort to become copacetic with such Johnny-come-lately features as the RTE, MyHome, Blogs, Stickies and so on that the baby truly is being thrown out with the bath water!

So please reconsider your Wikia-wide policy regarding substitution rather than simple transclusion for the MediaWiki:Welcome-user-page - it is a very small concession given the background painted above. The rationale for substitution simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

-- najevi 21:56, January 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ho, yeah, it's sure that for the user page, if we would want all users to use an infoxbox like this one :
 * http://fr.3d.wikia.com/wiki/Mod%C3%A8le:Utilisateur
 * it is a limitation.
 * But i think as they said that new users would have trouble understanding the code we put in their own user page. Plus, any user is suppose to be free to have the user page formatting they wish to. — TulipVorlax 22:53, January 4, 2010 (UTC)