Thread:Antvasima/@comment-38729545-20201107111503

Since Udlemaster has caught my attention once more of literally the cosmology for any works connected to Sun Wukong, the person I am about to link to you has debunk any notions of it being downplay as he is essentially retroactively apply multiverse theory while ignoring aspects of how it works.

[]“ 1) Many people taking part in such discussions have never read Journey to the West. This results in many citing inaccurate information that they've read on a forum, the comment section of a video, or some modern adaptation like a comic book; saw in a movie, TV show, video game, or an online video; or something they remembered as a fact but was actually just made up in their head.

Example #1: (Sun Wukong vs Pecos Bill) “After he gets beat by the Bodhisattva, the dude traps him under a mountain for like 500 years. Lao Tsu put the headband on him while he was immobilized and had his powers sealed”.​ Monkey is imprisoned under the mountain by the Buddha, not a Bodhisattva. Laozi has nothing to do with the headband. The Buddha gives three such headbands to Guanyin, who gives one to the monk Tripitaka centuries later. Sun Wukong does not receive the golden headband until after he is released from imprisonment, not during. Technically, he puts the band on himself after being tricked into thinking he’ll gain the ability to recite Buddhist scripture without rote memorization. Most importantly, the band in no way seals his powers, it only reins in his unruly behavior. The funniest and most accurate description of the band that I’ve seen online calls it his “remote control anti-Dick move device”. The difference in power between Monkey’s rebellion and his quest to India is simply the product of storytelling. He is only as strong or as fast as the particular episode needs him to be. Furthermore, discrepancies in his abilities are the result of the book being compiled from tales from oral literature and ritual theater making up a centuries old story cycle.​

Example #2: (Superman vs Sun Wukong) “I thought the Ruyi-Jingu Bang can bench press a galaxy?”​ This is based on a sentence from a fun but inaccurate English translation of the novel. A more accurate edition states Monkey's staff was used to set the depths of the Heavenly River, or the Milky Way. This involves a system of measure, not weight. It has zero to do with the staff supporting the weight of a galaxy.​

2) Those who have read the novel, or at least locate accurate information about Sun Wukong’s various feats, either forget important details or make the mistake of taking everything at face value.

Example #1: (Son Wukong (Journey to the West) vs Son Goku (Dragonball)) “Also a mountain being on him is very heavy by his standards”.​ A magic seal attached to the top of Five Elements Mountain is actually what keeps Sun Wukong from escaping. Once the monk Tripitaka removes the seal, Monkey is able to crack the mountain in half with ease.​

Example # 2: (Who will win in a fight between Sun Wukong and Thor?) “Wukong was trapped and unable to escape by having 3 mountains on top of him”.​ The three landmasses are not normal, earthly mountains. Mount Sumeru, the first to land on Sun, is the central axis of the Hindo-Buddhist cosmos, atop of which the gods reside, with various layers of heavens rising from the summit to higher realms of being. Mount Emei, the second to land on him, is the abode of the Bodhisattva Samantabhadra, and Chinese legend states Buddhism spread from this mountain into China from India. It should be noted that Wukong is able to run “with the speed of a meteor” while toting both of these mountains on this shoulders. Mount Tai, the third and final mountain to land on him, is considered a Daoist deity in itself, as well as the heaviest thing imaginable in Chinese culture. It’s no wonder then that it ultimately overwhelms Monkey's supernatural strength. How exactly does one quantify the weight of Mount Tai in modern terms? More pointedly, how heavy is the heaviest thing? Does the mountain weigh more than a planet, a star, a galaxy, the universe? This leads me to my next point.​

3) People remove Wukong from his correct literary and religious context and stage hypothetical battles in a universe informed by modern science.

Example #1: (Is Sun Wukong of Journey to the West really way above planet level?) – “He never busted a galaxy, he never busted a star, he never even busted a planet”.​ Celestial bodies are anthropomorphized and zoomorphized in Journey to the West—that is to say stars and planets are represented in either human or (sometimes mythical) animal form. Monkey is shown capable of defeating such entities. For instance, he defeats the “Nine Luminaries" in hand-to-hand combat during his rebellion. At the height of the melee, the Great Sage arrived. "Make way!" he yelled, whipping out his iron rod. One wave of it and it was as thick as a rice bowl and about twelve feet long. The Great Sage plunged into battle, and none of the Nine Luminaries dared oppose him. In a moment, they were all beaten back. When they regrouped themselves again in battle formation ... [t]he Nine Luminaries mounted a joint attack, but the Handsome Monkey King was not in the least intimidated. He wielded his golden-hooped rod, parrying left and right, and fought the Nine Luminaries until they were thoroughly exhausted. Every one of them turned around and fled, his weapons trailing behind him. For context, the Nine Luminaries are the sun and the moon, the known planets Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn, and two shadowy planets/stars called Rahu and Ketu. Sun Wukong later recites a poem in which he states these celestial bodies fear him. How exactly does one map this mythology onto real world astronomy? If he single-handedly defeats these nine solar and planetary gods, does this mean he’s capable of destroying a solar system? If Wukong is fighting Superman, does his power over the sun mean he can scare the modern concept of our star into hiding, thus depriving the Kryptonian of his much needed solar energy?​

Now, someone familiar with the novel might claim such celestial beings lack citable superhuman feats, making it impossible to gauge the strength needed by Sun Wukong to defeat them. This may be true, but the same person (or others) will inevitably go on to cite an example from their chosen warrior's canon in which he or she blows up a planet or star. What's the difference between one character beating up the embodiment of the sun in mythology and a character who blows up a star in comics/anime? A star is being overwhelmed in both cases. If the solar deity is not accepted as a representation of the physical sun, then there is no point in including a mythical figure like Sun Wukong in the debate in the first place.​

Example #2: (Composite Sun Wukong vs Composite Thor Odinson) “Sun Wukong is many things, but a casual multiversal traveller he is not”. [This is preceded by information about the comic book version of Thor hopping dimensions with ease.]​ Journey to the West doesn't deal in multiple universes or dimensions. In fact, the earth in which Monkey lives is not our world. The world in the novel is modeled after the Hindo-Buddhist cosmos, which has four continents afloat in four holy oceans, each of which surrounds the four respective faces of the aforementioned celestial mountain, Mount Sumeru. One could make an argument for the various layers of heaven or hell being different dimensions. If accepted, Sun would indeed be a traveler of dimensions because he freely hops from one to the other. But my point is that one can't remove a literary/religious character from their original narrative, which was compiled centuries prior to the discovery of galaxies and hypothesized alternate dimensions and universes, place them in a different fictional universe informed by modern science, and then state the character is “not known for doing something (related to these modern scientific concepts)” in their original source material.​

4) People will inevitably pit Wukong against modern day characters with many iterations, each one being more powerful than the last.

Example: (Monkey King vs Superman) "He [Strange Visitor Superman] outran the death of the universe casually after holding it together with nothing but his willpower until every sentient creature had died in it, mind you, he was able to have two conversations as he was running and it didn't catch up to him after he stopped. He broke into 5D space, and I believe 6D space casually. He outlived all the gods. I believe he blitzed Mxy [Mister Mxyzptlk, a powerful 5th dimensional imp] at one point too".​ There have been many, many iterations of Superman over the decades, including but not limited to the Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age, Crisis, Post-Crisis, New 52, All-Star Superman, Strange Visitor Superman, Superman Prime One Million, etc. The original Superman could outrun a train, leap a building (note: his power of flight first appeared in a 1940s radio show), and had bulletproof skin that could only be damaged by the strongest mortar shells circa 1938. Now compare this meager list of abilities with that of Strange Visitor Superman quoted above. There's obviously a huge difference, and this version of the "Man of Steel" is actually not as powerful as Superman Prime One Million! This just shows how the character's powers have grown exponentially, each iteration (with a few exceptions) becoming more powerful than the last. As DC comics introduced stronger and stronger characters, Superman's writers had to increase his powers in order for him to remain the pinnacle of Superherodom.​

In contrast, there is only one version of Sun Wukong. He's had the same powers and feats since the final Ming version of the novel was compiled and anonymously published in 1592. Is it fair to pit him against characters whose writers have the benefit of hundreds of years of worldwide mythological and fictional hindsight, giving them the chance to make their creation stronger and stronger by embellishing and expanding upon the abilities of previous characters? (Admittedly, some debates will allow "composite" characters, meaning representations of Sun Wukong from other forms of media (video games, TV, movies, comics, etc.) can be used to increase his powers. But I honestly haven't see too many of these.)​

It's obvious that I'm a big fan of Monkey, but I'm under no illusion that he's the strongest character in all mythology or fiction. Even in Journey to the West, Wukong's abilities pale in comparison to certain demons, such as the "Roc of Ten Thousand Cloudy Miles", who is a primordial bird demon and spiritual uncle of the Buddha. In fact, he's so strong that, even after being captured by the Buddha, the Roc refuses to stop eating meat, forcing the Enlightened One to convince some of his followers to offer their bodies as sacrifices.

I hope this piece has helped people understand the pitfalls of such online debates. If people still insist on using Sun Wukong, the best advice I can give is simple: 1) read the novel and 2) make sure you understand the cultural context for any feat/event that you plan to cite. The end notes of the Anthony C. Yu 2012 revised English translation are a goldmine of background info. PDF scans of all four volumes of this set can be downloaded for free from my research blog. Obviously, if you enjoy the digital version, please support the official release.”

At this point, I suggest we add a footnote about how we reword this as this has gone far enough.l https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/author/Y/A/au5291803.html 