User:RansomTime/talk/1

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Licensing
( -->) - User talk:Brandon Rhea: SWFanon

I laughed
Nice avatar...Abce2 | Free lemonade only 25 cents! 00:48, July 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, the cake - I was struggling to think of something to put there, so it was a placeholder, seems to have stuck -- Random Time  00:47, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's just that we have almost the same avatar that made me laugh.Abce2 | Free lemonade only 25 cents! 15:03, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Aah, I didn't realize - Monobook users only see avatars in blog comments -- Random Time  15:39, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

i would say on community central
on my blog, i think it should be on community central because my own wiki is only about 1 thing. this is the main wiki so here is the best Happy65 12:57, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, Community central is the "main wiki" but I don't think many editors here Club Penguins on a regular basis - and those that do probably won't see the poll. Also, your signature here should link to your userpage (it's just plaintext at the moment) -- Random Time  13:07, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

I have a highlited one on other wikis but there is no option on this wiki '''Happy65. Randomtime Rules'''

Anyway cp wiki has not got past to the next round, i know cp answers has but im Not voting for that. plz vote Happy65.Randomtime Rules
 * I'd perfer not to, please sign your comments (using ~ ) when posting on a talk page -- Random Time  09:32, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

"I'm starting to think Wikia really doesn't get it"
I typed the above line as I exited IRC this morning. I was referring to what I think is Wikia's lack of understanding on how wikis, and wiki communities work. You may have heard of the Wikia Staff Blog, which outlines Wikia's new skin plans. The blog had information, but not that much, and I, like other users, wanted to know some information about the changes. My personal interest was not losing monobook - which Wikia had previously promised to keep around, but had not mentioned in anything about this new skin.

Where would be the best way to gather feedback? My bet is, many users would suggest a talk or forum page, where different concerns could be given their own section header, and then addressed properly. However, shortly after a forum page was set up, Uberfuzzy placed a large notice stating that the staff wouldn't read comments there, and wanted feedback as blog comments. If you are not shocked by that last sentence, please read it again.

Blog comments? Are you out of your mind. You can't edit them after you've sent them, they're formatted in an ugly way, and you have to click a little button at the bottom of the page to read more, when they scroll of the page. This is not a good place to gather good discussion and feedback. The blog comments became little more than an echo-chamber, with people asking the same thing over and over. If this was in a forum page, people would read the section headers, and contribute there. There would be a more varied and valid discussion. None of this can happen in a blog comment.

Yes, I understand Wikia is doing a beta of the skin (which is something they didn't do with monaco) - but when asking for feedback, it seems idiotic to have it in blog comments. I also applaud Wikia's general efforts with communities. However, wikia is a company that is based around wikis, including the wiki model of building a community. However - some of the things they've done recently haven't really been to the benifit of the traditional thinking of what a wiki is. The 2 most recent examples of this are:
 * Article comments
 * Achievements

Both of these features, thankfully - are opt-in (although I do notice that central's just recently got article comments). I'm going to address the article comment feature first, most users know what these arguments are. Article comments, as opposed to talk pages:
 * Are easier to write on than talk pages
 * Scroll like blog comments
 * Therefore probably won't be seen as much
 * Can't be sorted into section headers
 * Vandalism can't be removed by users - sysops have to do it
 * Vandalism can't even be flagged by users, unless an external system is created where users warn sysops of vandalism
 * Create a "New page" in RC every time one is written, regularly taking 2 lines in RC, when one would normally be taken up by this comment (a busy article comments section, therefore - will take up a lot of space in RC, where the talk namespace will not)

Achievements, whilst encouraging editing - encourage RC spam, and editing for editing's sake. I don't want someone who edits the article space every 2 seconds, adding minor details to think that he's better than a user who only edits a bit, but still makes valid contributions. It violates one of the first principles of most wikis, you are valuable. Achievements create the impression that users with more edits are more valuable than users with less edits, which is incorrect, and potentially damaging for the smaller user. Yes, they do encourage editing, but they don't encourage the right type of editing.

I'm sorry that I ranted, but I felt that I needed to get my frustrations out. I'm posting this on my talkpage, feel free to comment underneath. This was written in a, slightly ranty state at 2AM on a Wednesday morning. -- <font color="Orange">Random <font color="Black">Time  00:53, August 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * I was on the IRC this morning with you, and I agree 100% with you. I already said what I thought about it back there, so there's no need to explain it again, and you totally covered it all. -- ( (  (  ( <font color="00AAFF"><font face="Papyrus" size="2"> Matias   )  )  )  )  ~ <font face="Papyrus" size="2"> Talk  <font face="Papyrus" size="2">AVATAR Wiki 01:19, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Total agreement. Darthkenobi0(talk) 01:31, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I also agree.  The thing  Talk 01:50, August 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree 100%, I don't think anybody could have said this better, Randomtime. -- 01:54, August 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hear hear. Achievements don't make people more productive, they make people more competetive.  That's a great thing in a video game, where you're supposed to compete with other players.  That's a horrible thing on a wiki, where you're supposed to cooperate and collaborate with your fellow editors, not compete with them for edit counts.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 02:31, August 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * You don't get that Wikia is going for quantity, not quality. User_blog:Sannse/Your_First_Look_at_the_New_Wikia is passing 500 comments as we speak, and I doubt we ever had that many on "new Monaco" using a forum, certainly not in that short a time span. Positively put, Wikia is going for "user participation".
 * The trouble is that Wikia's breaking old wiki expectations in the process. Examples: I don't see a way to click my way to the blog from clicking on a user blog comment on RC. (With article comments, it takes two clicks.) Enhanced RC doesn't group them, so if I want RC to be usable, I have to exclude all user blog comments, and am thus going to miss the lesser ones. The watchlist has been degraded to a list that lets other people know what pages I like; it doesn't show blog posts to a blog I'm watching (though I can opt to get email notifications), it doesn't show blog comments (or article comments, AFAIK), as opposed to talkpage edits. They don't clearly separate article features from skin features, and thus depriving the wikis they're hosting of the skins they could potentially offer. This is all very Web 2.0; I don't doubt it is driven by marketing/advertiser expectations; and Wikia has the sorry task of designing a page that appeals to marketing while not driving away users (but they count on the content to keep us here, and it works). -- ◄mendel► 08:03, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikia has consistently introduced new features in a way that break existing wiki mechanisms (e.g. the yellow notices we find on our talkpages, they're not even archived anyplace). Their updates regularly break existing skin modifications; do a great skin mod, and just by being on Wikia, over time it will degrade into ugliness if not maintained, for often little benefit for the wiki concerned. Wikia is trying to be a "social site" and apply the same control other web2.0 sites are able to apply to their sites; while at the same time being a "MediaWiki hoster with benefits". It's a tough line to follow, and it causes these conflicts. But then, it also seems to keep the servers running. -- ◄mendel► 08:09, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

The reason we are pushing people towards the blog comments is that we want reactions from as many different people as possible. We know that we often hear from a smallish group of highly active users -- who are important people to listen to of course -- but who aren't all of Wikia. We've seen that blog comments encourage more people to speak out, and help us get a better picture of the opinions of the whole of Wikia. For this post, we’ve tried to contact as many people on Wikia as possible -- including by using some of our ad space to reach anons.

Ideally, we want one place to monitor to gather all the comments and to post our replies. But I think you are right that specific questions may get lost in so many comments. We also want to build up the FAQ as the most asked questions become clear (and as we have answers for them) so I think we should use Fandyllic's forum post as a place to gather those questions before they move to the FAQ. We aren't going to be able to answer everything (yet), but we will look at what is being asked there and move things to the FAQ over time. Once the beta starts, I think a lot more questions and answers will become clear.

Thanks for the feedback, we are reading every comment on the blog and are really pleased to be hearing so many, and such a variety, of Wikian voices. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 18:24, August 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * I try to help, but that doesn't make the comment system good. It is a signal-to-noise ratio problem. Unless Wikia also makes some kind of summary report about how they are accounting for blog comments, it is mostly noise. I don't want to have to sift through 20 pages of "I like it!" or "It sucks!" to find actual useful information.
 * I withdrew from active involvement in WoWWiki, I can withdraw from Wikia in general. I don't want to, but I can. -- Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 1:35 PM PST 18 Aug 2010
 * Thanks for the response, I understand where you're coming from (not the approach I would choose, but it's a vaid approach, and has it's advantages). -- <font color="Orange">Random <font color="Black">Time  09:10, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * It turns out that a large group of mostly highly active users (i.e. the blog responders) is saying much the same thing that the small group would have said - only that the small group is posting the better reasoned comments. Have a look at the edit count of every well written blog comment, and I bet you you'll be looking at very active users. -- ◄mendel► 09:30, August 20, 2010 (UTC)