Forum:Issues with Halo Nation

Chat Room Debacle

 * Hello, fellow Wikiapedians. My name is Leon, and I am currently an Administrator at the Fallout wiki. (Nukapedia) This is going to be a complete backtracking of the entire event, so please bare with me as I'm going to describe every little detail. Two days ago, we had a minor incident in chat where chat members from the ICarly wikia wiki decided to invade our chat. After talking about the incident some afterwards, we all decided to hop around as a group to other chat rooms around Wikia to see how their communities compared to ours. Our first stop was the ICarly wikia wiki, and they were actually quite nice people, and we even learned a couple things from them, which led to us finally adding in our own custom chat room welcome message.


 * Our next stop was the Halo Nation's chat room. We have always had a sour relationship with Halo Nation, but they had recently purged most of their leadership for corruption reasons. Because of this, we were hoping it would be a lot more pleasant of an experience, but we were met with instant hostility, which led to all of us being banned. (DISCLAIMER: It is clearly defined in Wikia general policies that Administrators must take everything as good faith at first, until actions prove otherwise. It is not the job of an Administrator to ban people.) Many of us never even got more than a sentence or even a word out before being unjustly banned. You may find the chat logs, here. As you can see, none of did anything to disrupt their chat, and yet they claimed we were invading and harassing users. This was quite obviously a lie, and me and the user Great Mara stood up to them over this entire debacle. We were banned as a result, and it wasn't until their Administrator T3CHNOCIDE came into our chat at Fallout, did we get a chance to explain our side of the story.


 * I managed to have myself unbanned to present my case, but no one else was pardoned, so I made sure to make my case known on the Administrator's talk-page that had banned all of us. (Along with the chat moderator SGT D Grif.) I asked him for proof, as their policies clearly dictate that all bans must be backed up by evidence. You may find that policy, here. Not only have they refused to show evidence, but they have also made a clear effort to remove my message demanding evidence, as seen here. I was polite through my entire message, so they can not use the excuse that I was using intimidating behaviour. So why am I bringing this incident to all of you here at Community Central? For two reasons:


 * First - There are still Nukapedians who are banned. Many of the users have also not been pardoned from their chat bans, and no apology has been publically withcoming.


 * Second - Myself and multiple other Nukapedians sent in reports to VSTF and Wikia Staff. They seem to be refusing to help, even though we have provided proof of their corruption and their inability to follow general Wikia ToU and policies. This is not the first time either incidents like this have happened, but Wikia Staff seems to enjoy the freedom of letting them abuse users. (This is not a general term for all Wikia Staff and VSTF. This is also just an observation, not an insult.)


 * I'm hoping that this forum will help raise awareness of the actions present at Halo Nation. Thank you for reading, and I'll be looking forward to feedback from you all. Especially from Wikia Staff and VSTF. [[file:Dragon Leon.png|30px|link=User:GarouxBloodline]] Skål! 02:19, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Updates

 * As seen here, Karl finally responded to my message. He was not, however, able to provide any evidence, and so had digressed to removing my messages again. Another clear sign of power abuse.
 * For those of you that doubt that there have been corruption issues at Halo Nation in the past, I would kindly like to refer you to this forum.

Comments
&nbsp To whomever may be reading this forum, I would like to point out this message left on one of Halo Nation's chat moderator's talk pages, left by the author themselves of this forum.

http://halo.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Sgt_D_Grif&diff=1347607&oldid=1343383

Thank you, and have a nice day. - 02:57, August 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Are you daft? Please read my response to Spartacus. Thank you for reiterating upon a point I already properly addressed. [[file:Dragon Leon.png|30px|link=User:GarouxBloodline]] Skål! 03:02, August 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Late post, didn't see the below argument. My apologies. 03:12, August 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * I understand. I hope my response to him was satisfactory to you as well. [[file:Dragon Leon.png|30px|link=User:GarouxBloodline]] Skål! 03:20, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

No, you did harass a user about, as seen here. Telling someone they have a stick up their ass is harassment. Why can't you guys just leave us alone? That's all we want.-- Spartacus0898 ( Talk ) 02:41, August 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * You're right. I did. I never hid this fact, as I'm seen apologizing for it in one of the links I posted here. This was in response to the fact that we were unjustly banned, and no one was willing to provide evidence to justify the bans. It was also in response to the fact that Grif came into our Fallout chat and told us all that if we didn't like their actions, we could get over it and never come back. In any case, my message to him was still legitimate. I just made the mistake of using a little ad hominem. [[file:Dragon Leon.png|30px|link=User:GarouxBloodline]] Skål! 02:45, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Whether the administration at Halo Nation is in the wrong or not, staff (from what I've seen) generally don't get into problems like these. The best advice you're likely to get is to more or less just let it go. Sorry.


 * Absolutely not. If it was just me banned, I would let it go. But I am not going to stand for it when an entire group of users from my home wiki get banned for no reason. It is also the Wikia Staff's problem, as I have provided evidence that the leadership at Halo Nations has broken both Wikia policies and ToU. [[file:Dragon Leon.png|30px|link=User:GarouxBloodline]] Skål! 02:49, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Then should I get into the fact that when I tried to appeal the chat ban with Forerunner, not only was I cut off by Karl-591, but banned for 'harassment' when I tried to contact them again? Furthermore, when Garoux tried to contact Karl earlier, Karl simply used Rollback and tried to ignore the issue entirely instead of giving a reply? Message 02:54, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I misread your comments.-- Spartacus0898 ( Talk ) 03:08, August 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * But you are right, though, in a sense. I do regret to insulting him as my first response to his actions against us. Just have to take into account how frustrating the situation was at the time. I won't make the mistake of saying such things again. [[file:Dragon Leon.png|30px|link=User:GarouxBloodline]] Skål! 03:10, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the apology. Didn't T3CHNOCIDE work it out with you guys that you would let us know when you were coming to our chat? That's what I heard.-- Spartacus0898 (Talk ) 03:13, August 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sort of. We agreed from now on if we plan on joining either chat room with a large group, we'd send a message in advance to let everyone know. This forum is for the removal of unjust bans, and a possible apology though. I'm just trying to look out for the users at my home wiki. I hope you can understand. [[file:Dragon Leon.png|30px|link=User:GarouxBloodline]] Skål! 03:18, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, I understand. Hopefully we can work out the ban issue then.-- Spartacus0898 ( Talk )' 03:24, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

I would just like to point out that I was banned during one of the previous incidents referenced by GarouxBloodline and was unjustly banned a few seconds after joining the chat. I decided that the two wikis had gotten past the drama, so I tried re-entering, and it seems that I am still banned from HN's chat. I went to an admin to ask about my ban while that administrator was online, and I was promptly ignored as he went on editing and talking to others. I only mention this because I won't show up in the chat logs and I would really like the opportunity to return to Halo Nation's chat as I do have friends there and everywhere else.  ~ Toci ~ Go ahead, make my day.  03:45, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Godzilla doesn't go on the chat at all, so he probably didn't care about it. I suggest asking T3CHNOCIDE if you want to be unbanned.-- Spartacus0898 ( Talk )' 04:19, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, that would have been helpful at the time. Thanks, I guess, but at this point, it's much easier to have my ban lifted with everyone else's in this fora.  ~ Toci ~ Go ahead, make my day.  04:41, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

I would like to point out that it is not the VSTF's job to deal with such issues. When to take action on a wiki is clearly set in our policies, therefore accusing us of ignorance disregards the point that such reports should not be sent to us. The way to go is Special:Contact/general&mdash;I cannot provide an explanation for the lack of response or action on Staff's side, as I am not involved in that. TK-999 (talk) 13:06, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Hi TK, I'm glad to hear you say that as last night the nukapedia chatroom was "warned off" visiting the Halo Nation Wiki by a VSTF on pain of them reporting it to staff... One of the VTSF members said, and I quote " Next time you guys cause trouble for them, staff will get involved Is that understood?" at 11:27 London Time There was more I wont post but this member by their own admission was ignorant of the full facts of the issue. I wont name the person, but please contact me direct if a log is required. Agent c (talk) 16:01, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry if that happened. As far as I can see, this was unilateral action&mdash;he also apologized for it in our channel earlier this day, so the incident should not be repeated. Sorry for the inconvenience.TK-999 (talk) 17:22, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that, didn't mean to come off so harshly. --Callofduty4 (talk) 21:04, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

I have to say, this is one of the most disgraceful cases of power abuse and bullying by admins I have ever seen... -- 19:59, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Staff reply
Hi, we've replied to some mail on this today, but it seems that the issues have expanded enough to need a public reply here.

Halo Wiki: Staff do intervene in blocks occasionally (although we prefer not to have to). In this case, we don't see a need to do so, and you should block as the admins and community think best for your wiki. Please do not go to Fallout Wiki's chat - if that's something you had considered.

Fallout Wiki: Please do not go back to Halo Wiki's chat. As you won't be using it, any blocks there are irrelevant, please forget about them and move on. If you individually want to become a member of the Halo community, then that is something you will need to work on over time. I recommend starting by improving articles, getting to know the local community and its norms, and not getting involved in controversies. Outside of that, please don't interfere with the wiki or its chat.

I'll also add here a scenario that I sent to one of those involved: Imagine a group of regulars are in the Fallout chat one afternoon, when suddenly 10 extra people join. They say they are from WoWWiki, and want to know whether it's true that Fallout admins are totally unfair in their blocks. They talk about various things besides that, dominating the chat and diverting the usual conversation.

They wouldn't have to be doing anything that's actually wrong to be disruptive, the presence of a large group of non-regulars in a chat (especially ones asking provocative questions about the wiki) is disruptive in itself.

The details may not be exactly the same, but I'm pretty much certain that if that happened the Fallout mods' reaction would be similar to that on Halo.

So I ask that both sides move on from this dispute, and go back to editing your different (and unique) wikis. Thank you. -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 20:16, August 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * And in response to that sannse, the scenario did actually play out only a few days ago with another wiki (other than CoD or HN). And I do believe not a single one was banned from chat. One of them even broke our local chat rules (no caps lock) and was not banned, instead the individual was warned. Indeed, that was not the only time, it has happened that others wikis have on several occasions visited without incident. You see, we are a lot more tolerable of other, and do not stereotype people to the point of banning them on sight.


 * Plus I am interested in your comment about how staff prefer not to intervene in local matters. Because after the VSTF members incident, we had a staff member from the CoD wiki post this in our chat "Please keep your drama out of my chat", then proceeded to lecture our chat members and admin. This stems from one of there members bringing drama to our wiki (also posting messages on the CoD wiki to our members), and in its own right is bringing further drama to our wiki and being disruptive. So you will forgive me for not assuming good faith, in that I see that staff and volunteers alike both make the assumption of bad faith in out wiki and its community. And I think this is further indicated by your response here, as it does seem to be rather ones sided on the whole matter. Either that, or you just want to hold your head in the sand. Either way, I don't know why I am still always surprised by the bias nature of those involved, but there you go. User:GhostAvatar talk 22:57, August 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I see the response here from staff as extremely one sided. This is a community that is comprised of all of the wikias, is it not? How is the mass banning as demonstrated in the chat log for no apparent reason not an abuse of power? I'll use your example from above:
 * I'll also add here a scenario that I sent to one of those involved: Imagine a group of regulars are in the Fallout chat one afternoon, when suddenly 10 extra people join. They say they are from WoWWiki, and want to know whether it's true that Fallout admins are totally unfair in their blocks. They talk about various things besides that, dominating the chat and diverting the usual conversation.


 * They wouldn't have to be doing anything that's actually wrong to be disruptive, the presence of a large group of non-regulars in a chat (especially ones asking provocative questions about the wiki) is disruptive in itself.


 * My fellow Nukapedians did not go in and start talking Fallout, one user simply asked about the bans which most people use chat for if someone like a friend or what not has been banned. It was very apparent that Sgt D Grif just blatantly kicked our people because of who they were. Period, not because they were doing something wrong but because they were a certain type of people. That kind of behavior is uncalled for in any admin on any wiki period. But if you are willing to not assume good faith on our part, so be it.I honestly do not think I nor any of my other Nukapedians should be banned from a chat room because we don't fit their "favorite type of person". Should we have our own drinking fountains too? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I just think this is utterly distasteful and I agree with everything Ghost has to say. Good night.--Kingclyde (talk) 00:32, August 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your reply Sannse, I will be sure to direct Fallout members to this post before asking them politely to leave in future.


 * 23:47, August 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * ^^^ And this is the result of that choice sannse. It will now be used as an excuse and sole reasoning to kick and/or ban people on sight. You have simply opened the door to mistrust and abuse of power. Whatever happened to the assumption of good faith, this choice has lead things in totally the wrong direction. But if that is the way it is going to be. Then I think, by all rights if this is how it is going to be on one end, then I should perma-ban any member of HN from our wiki, on sight, without due provocation, or any means of recourse. User:GhostAvatar talk 01:12, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about Halo Nation. I have a friend or two there to whom I'd like to pay a visit, but I guess not. All I'm going to say is that if anyone from Halo Nation wishes to visit the Nukapedia chat/community, they will not be in any trouble or held to a different standard while I'm around. If any admin or regular user for that matter should commit an act of or make a comment relating to this incident as a negative, they will be punished by I, myself. I will not tolerate any sort of hate like that anywhere on any wiki. Now, the following is just my two-cents. Do not take it in an insulting manner or by any other negative means. This note has no malicious intent whatsoever: I'm not going to argue with Sannse's decree, but I don't agree with it AT ALL. Wikia is supposed to be a public community that anyone can skim across at will. Sannse telling us that we are forbidden from visiting each other's chats is an extremely unfair decision, as it gives them the power to kick and ban us at will simply because of our backgrounds. I thought discrimination was against the ToU, but the almighty have spoken, I guess. Anyways, back to my original statement: I will not be hopping on the bigot train. Halo Nation members and any member of the Wikia community is welcome at Nukapedia chat, and they always will be. Halo Nation users, I now speak directly to you. If you are ever kicked and/or banned from our chat because of what wiki you come from, then tell me about it. I will personally investigate the situation and see to it that you are treated fairly. I'd argue with my bureaucrats if it meant fair treatment for all. Alright. My line in the sand is drawn and clearly marked. That's all I have to say on this matter. I will not reply to any other message or response to me on this subject - don't take it as rude. I simply do not wish for this bickering to continue any further. Now, let's all get back to editing.  ~ Toci ~ Go ahead, make my day.  00:51, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

Just for clarification, I am a minor editor and a chatter at Nukapedia. Now, onto my 2 cents:

What happened with HN was extremely uncalled for and not warranted at all. I may not have been there for the incident, but Leon and a few other of my friends from Nukapedia have informed me in detail of what has happened. What the administrators did was downright power abuse and a violation of Assuming Good Faith, and you're just gonna let it slide? I'm sorry, but that is just unacceptable. What the administrators on Halo Nation did is at least deserving of some punishment. Maybe a temporary removal of rights? Nevertheless, just because both of our wikis have sour relationships with one another does not mean that we should go around banning people for simply joining our or their chat, and I completely support Leon, Toci, Clyde and Ghost in this matter. Cheese Lord (talk) 01:41, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

So Sannse, you are saying I can't go into Halo chat anymore even if I went a little bit before this all happened? If that is what you are saying, it is extremely idiotic to say we can't another wiki's chat as we are all one community in the end.ToCxHawK Hawk da Barber 2012 - BSHU Graduate 02:37, August 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * A quick note. I've read the comments, but won't have a chance to reply until tomorrow.  In the mean time, I ask that everyone let this rest for now, and go back to editing on your wikis.  I won't protect this page, but would prefer that no one add to it until I have had a chance to respond.  That includes responding to the latest message below.  Thank you -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png  (help forum | blog)  03:28, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

For all Fallout members
Those who have been banned, please feel free to comment here, but for those who have not been banned, and are simply commenting because the members are from your wiki please note that this is NOT a Fallout wiki issue, and that Fallout has no jurisdictional powers in our wiki. It is our job as administrators of Halo Nation to deal with problems that arise on our wiki, and is not up for discussion from members who are not members of our community, or are involved in the current dispute. This was not power abuse, but simply a misjudgement of character caused by questionable activity from the Fallout wiki previously, which had led to this unfortunate incident.

You have now received your formal reply from the Wikia staff. The matter has been dealt with, and has fallen in favour of the administration of Halo Nation. Any amount of accusing, and complaining will not change this fact, and nor will it make our community any more eager to reduce or change your bans after heavily insulting us as such. If you have been banned from the wiki I ask that you please be patient and bare the remainder of the ban duration, as we expect any other user too.

As for using our facilities. All users regardless of background and location are free to use our chat and wiki, if you are a member of our community and have regularly visited our wiki before (as with the case of ToCxHawK who regularly visits our chat) please feel free to return without fear of being turned back. For members who legitimately wish to take part in our community and are banned, please use our wiki email system to email an admin as to why you should be unbanned and why you wish to take part in our community, users who do not use polite mannerisms will be refused, plain and simple. And for those who wish to visit our site merely in defiance of Sannse's judgement you will be politely asked to leave the chat and given a chance to leave, those who do not head our warning will be banned, so please respect moderation authority.

Regards,

T3CHNOCIDE.