Forum:Global Block Log

Eglinton was blocked globally, according to this. Is there a Global Block Log like there is on Wikimedia Meta-Wiki? Thanks, Head.Boy.Hog (Talk To Me)  11:04, June 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * Nope, on Wikia all global blocks are done in secret. Wouldn't accountability be terrible? 13:28, June 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * To clarify, there is a log but only staff/halpers/vstf can view it. 13:32, June 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * The specific revision where Brandon Rhea mentions the global block of Elgington is [ here]. I wonder what you have to do to be blocked globally? I was wondering what happened to that user. He was helping out on Logo Creation wiki, but dropped off the radar. Wikia should put some kind of note on wikis where a user has been active if they decide to globally block someone. Having a hidden log is pretty much against the wiki spirit as well. -- Fandyllic (talk &middot; contr) 13 Jun 2011 1:25 PM Pacific


 * You make some good points, Fandyllic. We had some minor problems with that user resulting in temporarary block. Once the blocks expired, he never came back. But, because I thought that he would, overall, be a good contributor, I wanted to remind him that his short-term block had expired and to encourage his return. Then I stumbled across [ this]. Wikia needs some centralized noticeboards like they have over at the Wikimedia Foundation projects: one for global blocks and another to notify us when there are Wikia-wide system issues (like MediaWiki:Common.js not loading properly for the Wikia (i.e., Oasis) skin). In keeping with the wiki spirit (as referred to by Fandyllic), we should strive here at Wikia for the sort of transparency that exists at Wikipedia with their incident system and their Arbitration Committee. — Spike Toronto  9:09PM EDT, June 13, 2011


 * Wikia isn't striving for an open system, they just want to make as much money as possible. If you could see the global block log you'd see how many times Wikia people have abused it (cases like this). But yea, according to their terms of use, they can block you whenever they feel like it. I bet that I'll soon be blocked for speaking up against the almighty Wikia myself, but you did ask :P 02:55, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

First off, let me start with: we are not Wiki(p|m)edia. We are not subject to their rules, or policies, or judgements or rulings. While we do try to model ourselves against their (usually) shining example of "how things should be" on a wiki, being a separate entity, with different goals, ideas, environment and more over with Wikia being a private company and not a publicly accountable/run foundation, we can choose to do things our own way, and for us to decide exactly what the "wiki spirit" means.

That aside, there are many reasons why to NOT have a public block log. Most notably being, not advertising who/what we are blocking. Our Phalanx system covers IPs, Usernames, but also regex based name blocks. If it were easily determined what we had just blocked, you could easily evade said regex name block. Its akin to "not feeding the trolls" by not advertising on their user pages with giant templates that they have been blocked. The same reason that the checkuser isnt publiclly viewable on wikipedia, our logs of global blocks can also possibly disern a user-IP relationship.

Another point, currently the block reasons are currently only displayed to the user that it affects, and sometimes contain specific information that we would not want to be shown to other users (more 'dont feed the trolls')

This same system also covers a nother of other things, like page titles, page contents, edit summaries and wiki creation related things, that for the same reasons as above, if you can see where the blocks are, you can sidestep them. I know its usually a bad policy, but sometimes obsurity HELPS security (just as long as thats not your only defense).

One of the reasons that the logs of the Phalanx system are hard to make public, is that the logs are not stored in a "wiki" log table, but in a centralized database that is not part of any single wiki. It would require a number of code and permission restructuring to allow a non-actionable user to view the interface, and the logs within, but not beable to affect blocks. We might look into making this possible in the future, but right now, we have no desire to do so, and there is little information in there that is useful for the general public.

As for the comment about displaying record of a global block on the local wiki... last time we looked into this, there were a number of performance reasons that idea was abandoned. I'll take another look, as our hardware infrastructure has improved, as has mediawiki. If it is possible, it would only be possible to display if its an exact match, such as block on a single IP, or an single exact username, not users that are globally blocked as part of a partial regex block. We shall see.

As for the comment about "accountabilty", remember that this info isnt hidden. Any VSTF/Helper/Staff can see this tool, and its logs. Thats nearly 200 people under the umbrella of Wikia that can see it, and thats quite a bit of accountability. The info isnt secret, its just not public. We do regularly review the blocks being added, and keep an eye on things, but you need to trust that the people making said blocks are making the choices that need to be made to do their jobs.

Making some/all of this information more open is a goal of Wikia, but maybe not an urgent pressing need. We are working on providing an appropriate place display this to you. You'll start to see things show up across the site in this coming year, such as a better user information panel, better block messages, and tools to see where you are blocked, and where you have user rights (admin/crat/etc). One of the ideas of making that information more accessable, is also a better interface to see if you are actually blocked, and if its a global block, or just on that wiki, and the correct place to refute it.

We do want to make this information "open to you", just maybe not "public".

Thanks for understanding. --Uberfuzzy 12:44, June 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * I meant accountability to the community, so that we could determine ourselves whether or not an action is appropriate. But I guess in a system that appoints users to the various staff/helper/vstf positions without consulting the Wikia community in any way, asking for transparency might just be an unreasonable goal. 16:00, June 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the feedback Uber, but as Ajraddatz says, the issue is how Wikia involves the community. Global block logs don't need to be transparent, but assuming global blocks are rare, there could be a separate notice board that gives a list of who has been globally blocked, when and a general reason. Having users disappear can be unnerving. -- Fandyllic (talk &middot; contr) 14 Jun 2011 11:29 AM Pacific


 * An email notice to admins would suffice, if the block log is out of the question. Although I fear that's deeper in the technical restriction area.

&larr; (outdent) Thank you Uberfuzzy for the detailed response, especially the technical issues with which I, for one, was unfamiliar. I do have one issue, however, the comment"with Wikia being a private company and not a publicly accountable/run foundation, we can choose to do things our own way, and for us to decide exactly what the “wiki spirit” means"is troublesome. It is akin to McDonald’s saying that, not being a charitable organization, it is for it to decide what is or isn’t nutritious. Operating in the public sphere, McDonald’s is subject to what the marketplace, consumers, and experts determine to be nutritious. Were McDonald’s to ignore the marketplace, its stakeholders, experts, etc., surely it risks a diminution in its marketshare. Similarly, Wikia, saying that, as private corporation it gets to decide what is or isn’t in keeping with the wiki spirit, is itself contrary to the wiki spirit. Wikia operates in the same marketplace as other wikifarms. Were it to stray too far from the wiki spirit that its own founder was instrumental in fostering, a spirit that has taken the world by storm, it would begin to recede in the marketplace. Put bluntly, it risks the loss of marketshare.

On to more practical, less philosopical, matters! It is, as Fandyllic pointed out, unnerving when someone just disappears as the result of a global block, especially when the only way we learn of it is from a casual mention by a Wikia staffer in some other forum. I like Monchoman45’s idea of notifying founders/bureaucrats/admins by email. I also think that Fandyllic’s suggestion of a centralized list is also a good one, albeit one that may be more public than Wikia would feel comfortable with. What about creating a separate wiki — say bureaucrats.wikia.com — where such information would only be available to founders and bureaucrats? It saves the workload of e-mails and is less public than making such info visible to all. Thanks again Uberfuzzy for the response. — Spike Toronto  5:34PM EDT, June 14, 2011


 * Another more technically possible solution might be to allow limited access to the phalanx log via some sort of API module (affected by rate limits). That way people could look at it when they need to, but not abuse it to a great extent. That could also be easily restricted to users/autoconfirmed, further removing the possibility of abuse. 21:46, June 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Were Ajraddatz’s idea to be implemented, persons accessing it ought to have to fill in a reason field which would face periodic audit. I think, though, that access to it would have to be restricted to a higher level, perhaps Bureaucrats only. — Spike Toronto  5:57PM EDT, June 14, 2011


 * Anyone can become a B'crat by creating a wiki - so that system would have no affect. Note that Wikipedia makes a lot of their AbuseFilters private (not the same thing as the Phalanx system, but it blocks edits that have certain things in, similar to our Blacklist). Also, the majority of users who are globally blocked aren't users with any valid contributions, they're normally people who create an account to vandalise across Wikia. --  Random Time  22:00, June 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yet there are still cases of people being blocked due to Wikia's "we can block you whenever we like" ToU, and that is what this forum is entirely about. Wikipedia partially hides those so that vandals can't find ways to work around them, but they still allow trusted users to view them upon request, hence maintaining the transparency which is required on Wikipedia. I strongly doubt that anyone would give me a screenshot of the global block log here, though granted one could argue that I'm not trusted here. Still, I doubt that that would be given to anyone.
 * All of this assumes that Wikia wants to be as open and transparent as possible. You all do know that Wikia is a for-profit company, appoints users to staff/helper/vstf without consulting the community, has a term of use that states that they can block people without any reason, and has a history of disrespecting the decisions of local communities (such as when they want their wiki to be closed). I personally am not surprised that Wikia hides the global block log, nor would I expect them to allow access to it for that reason. 22:20, June 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sending an e-mail to any involved admins and bureaucrats could get burdensome on Wikia, since some users like Eglinton contributed to alot of wikis before getting the global ban hammer. I wouldn't be opposed to that method, if Wikia implements it, though.
 * However, just because Wikia could and sometimes does the wrong thing, we shouldn't expect it. We should also encourage Wikia to do the right thing. Unfortunately, I must agree with SpikeToronto, that whether or not Wikia understands and respects the wiki spirit, Uberfuzzy probably doesn't understand it.
 * One must hope that WIkia has learned some lessons from the Oasis debacle. It pains me to see links to Wowpedia on the official World of Warcraft site. -- Fandyllic (talk &middot; contr) 14 Jun 2011 4:17 PM Pacific

All I wanted to know was how long he was blocked for. Head.Boy.Hog (Talk To Me)  01:55, June 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * You didn’t say that … :)  — Spike Toronto  1:11AM EDT, June 16, 2011