User:FanofRPGs/sandbox40000

Number of Universes
"Ka’Bandha fell through the hidden spaces between worlds. The occulted gears of creation rushed by him. In the machineries of being were the inner secrets of the universe displayed to him. The daemonkin of Tzeentch would have damned a dozen eternities for a glimpse of what he saw, but Ka’Bandha did not care for knowledge. The things on display were valueless to him, and the wonders of infinity whirled by unappreciated. Ka’Bandha fell forever and for no time at all, until a wave of change rippled out through the multi-dimensional space he infected, upsetting the delicate workings of infinite, interleaved universes. Ka’Bandha howled in triumph. The promised storm had been unleashed."

- The Devastation of Baal This quote shows that Realspace has infinite universes. This will play alongside a later quote about several brane universes.

Other Timelines
"She drifted, watching each tightly woven thread split into fractal patterns of innumerable futures as she approached. The skein’s tides were unpredictable at the best of times, and to see one individual destiny was next to impossible."

- Gods of Mars, pg 10 As I will describe more in the Breath of the Gods part of the C’tan section, the cosmology also has infinite timelines and futures. This is likely through the Many-Worlds Interpretation.

"The many-worlds interpretation implies that there is a very large — perhaps infinite — number of universes. It is one of many multiverse hypotheses in physics and philosophy. MWI views time as a many-branched tree, wherein every possible quantum outcome is realised. This is intended to resolve the correlation paradoxes of quantum theory, such as the EPR paradox and Schrödinger's cat, since every possible outcome of a quantum event exists in its own universe."

- Wikipedia

However, do note the use of the word "fractal" and "innumerable," this make me thinks they are actually saying there is an uncountably infinite number of timelines. This makes the temporal element of Realspace 2-A to High 2-A, depending on how large the Materium is. As I will go on later, I do think the universe is infinite.

On the Myriad Dimensions of Realspace
I will start with the quote from Mechanicum written by Graham McNeil.

So Versus Battles Wiki currently uses this quote to justify an arbitrarily high number of higher spatial dimensions for Warhammer 40K:

"“You have such a limited understanding of the material world, girl. Words like here and there have no meaning. The myriad dimensions of this material universe cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language!”"

- Mechancium

And Versus Battles Wiki takes it to mean this:

"“which contains a number of higher dimensions so great it cannot be expressed by something so limited as human language”"

- How VSB interprets it

I disagree with this interpretation on all fronts, as I will explain below:

The Semantics Are Wrong
The interpretation Versus Battles Wiki has above requires some critical misunderstanding of how English works. In terms of parts of speech, the quote can be boiled down and deconstructed as “The x-number of dimensions are.” However, the wiki somehow read it as “There are an x-number of dimensions,” which is wholly wrong. Here is the quote again:

"“The myriad dimensions of this material universe cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language!”"

But for some reason it seems that Versus Battles Wiki read this quote as:

"“The myriad number dimensions of this material universe cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language!”"

The interpretation of “myriad dimensions” here somehow became “myriad number of dimensions” which changes the entire sentence’s meaning. But it never said “myriad number of dimensions,” it said “myriad dimensions” which means something entirely different.

I thus ask, where does one find him actually meaning “the number of dimensions?” What was assumed was that “myriad” means “number of” because myriad tends to be defined as “an arbitrarily large variety or number,” but it doesn’t mean “number of.” So it is talking about the QUALITY of the dimensions, not the QUANTITY. Also, VSB at the moment defines Myriad as arbitrarily large number, which fair enough, McNeil used it in that sense occasionally as I show below, but for a larger majority of the time, he used it as a flowery way to say “several” or “various.” Here are some examples from his Horus Heresy works:

False Gods: Fulgrim: No Reference: 
 * In the wake of the militant arm of the launch came the logistics of an invasion, ammunition carriers, food and water tankers, fuel haulers and a myriad other support vessels essential for the maintenance of offensive operations.

Mechanicum: The Outcast Dead: In the depths of the Whispering Tower, a lone figure hooded in a robe of embroidered jade stood in the centre of a domed chamber that echoed with the myriad voices of a departed choir.
 * Easily as huge as Equitos Bellum, it was spherical and heavily armoured, a pair of monstrous weapon arms at its sides and a myriad of flexible, metallic tentacles crouched over its shoulders like scorpions’ tails.
 * The Fabricator General was an imposing individual, a figure rendered massively tall by the machine parts and bulky augmetics that had replaced eighty-seven point six per cent of his flesh. Mechadendrites, alive with blades, saws and myriad other attachments waved at his back, while innumerable data wheels pulsed within him. Kane wondered how much of a body could be replaced with technology and still be called human.
 * Zeth gestured to the myriad of bulky vox-thieves and data carriers arranged around the dais. “In theory, the empath will simply be a conduit for information to pass from the aether to these recording devices.”
 * Information passed around Mars in a multitude of ways, along trillions of kilometres of cabling, through fibre-optics, fizzing electrical field clouds, wireless networks and hololithic conduits. The exact workings of the ancient mechanics by which many of the forges communicated were unknown, and even the magi that made use of such things did not fully understand them. Almost all the myriad means of information transfer were, however, vulnerable to the corrupting influence of the scrapcode boiling out from the depths of Olympus Mons in the dead of the Martian night
 * Information flooded him through the Manifold, a hundred different stimuli collected from the mighty engine’s myriad surveyors: heat, mass, motion, radiation, vibration and shield harmonics. Everything combined to paint a world more real to Cavalerio than reality itself.
 * Phosis T’kar stood near Ahriman to his right, with Khalophis on the spiral across from him. Hathor Maat was behind him and to his left, while Uthizzar was to his right and at the furthest extent of the spiral. A warrior’s standing was not simply measured by his proximity to the centre of the spiral, but by myriad other indicators: the position of the warrior next to him, behind him and across from him. Who was obscured, who was visible, the arc of distance between his position and the sun disc, all played their part in the dance of supremacy. Each member’s position interacted subtly with the other, creating a web of hierarchy that only Magnus could fathom.
 * The Enumerations were philosophical and conceptual tools to allow a practitioner of the mysteries to sift through the myriad complexities involved in bending the universe to his will. Such was his gift, the ability to achieve the impossible without knowing it was beyond comprehension.
 * “Channelling,” ordered Magnus, and glittering shapes unfolded from each warrior, Tutelaries in the forms of birds, eyes, lizards and a myriad other unnameable guises. They darted out into the open, and streams of fire and lightning erupted from their shimmering forms as their masters channelled aetheric powers through their insubstantial bodies.
 * Astartes and predatory killers fought in a confused mass of thrashing limbs, blades and claws. Ahriman swung his pistol around and drew on Aaetpio’s connection to the Great Ocean, tracing the myriad potential pathways of the future to follow the path his bolt would take in a fraction of a second. He squeezed the trigger twice in quick succession.
 * For six months, the Thousand Sons fleet suckled at the planet’s forges and materiel silos like newborns eager for the teat. Billions of rounds of ammunition, thousands of tonnes of food and water, uniforms, dried goods, pioneer supplies, armoured vehicles, power cells, fuel bladders and the myriad items an expeditionary fleet required in order to function were shipped from the surface in bulk lifters or via impossibly slender Tsiolkovsky towers.
 * “Which are you?” asked Lemuel without opening his eyes and trying to visualise the myriad paths of the falling cards.
 * The Reflecting Cave was filled with light, myriad pinpricks of soul-light that flickered form precisely shaped crystals held by the thousand Thralls standing at the intersection points of the cavern’s energy lines.
 * Thousands of tech-adepts, servitors and logi moved through the chamber’s myriad passageways,
 * It was not silent, this blackness, but filled with myriad howls, as though hunting packs of wolves stalked the unseen corners between worlds with them. Was there to be no escape from the Emperor’s war dogs?
 * Khaphed reached for him, his myriad eyes silently imploring him for help.
 * Abir ibn Khaldun exhaled cold air and saw myriad patterns in the swirling vapour of his breath, too many to examine fully, but diverting nonetheless.
 * If you learn anything in your time here, let it be that death surrounds us in all its myriad forms, just waiting to catch you unawares.
 * The man’s flesh was emblazoned with the tattooist’s art, myriad representations of lightning bolts, hammers and winged raptors.
 * Pleasure dreams, power dreams and a thousand gratified desires were paraded before Kai in myriad guises. Some masqueraded as reality, some as fantasy, but none could reach the buried secrets contained in the black horror of the Argo
 * ‘That remains to be seen,’ shouted Atharva in response, pushing his consciousness into the Custodian’s head, directing the living power of the warp into the myriad dying blood vessels in an effort to keep brain death at bay.
 * He took a terrified breath, but rather than the oily liquid texture he expected, a breath of achingly cold air filled his lungs. Instead of total darkness, Kai was plunged into a kaleidoscopic hallucination of myriad colours and swirling vortices.
 * The cylinder slid open with pneumatic hiss, and a mist of chemically-complex vapour drifted from the glistening organ within. Its surfaces were glossy red and purple, webbed with myriad networks of super-oxygenated blood.

In almost all of these quotes, any time "myriad" is used, it is shown to mean numerous and various. I.E Semyon’s quote can be taken as “The various dimensions of this material universe cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language!’” He is NOT saying that “The number of dimensions of this material universe cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language!” To believe that is to defy basic reading comprehension. He just means myriad as in a large number of dimensions are qualitatively X, not the actual quantifiable number is x amount. And myriad in the context of how the author uses it almost always just mean “various” or “many,” not even necessarily “an arbitrary (like millions or billions) large number.” So myriad to Graham McNeil could mean 10, 12, 100, 1000000, etc. This makes all the difference, and it means Versus Battles Wiki’s interpretation is wrong.

Plus what does that even mean to not “be defined by so limited a thing as human language” that isn’t just nonsense? I will get into this even further later down the line, but lemme give an example. The Berkely Cardinal is one of the largest and most exhaustive inconsistent cardinals, so large the fundamental axioms of Set Theory break down and if put into terms of tier, it would require a Tier S to be semi-comprehensible. Yet it can be defined in human terms. So does it fall subordinately to the nature of these “myriad dimensions?” Is Warhammer 40k now beyond Tier 0? That’s just one example and I will come back to this down the line.

Simply put, this is a rhetorically loaded quote which Versus Battles Wiki entirely misread in the first place to mean something else it grammatically and semantically never meant. If Semyon meant anything, he meant the quality of dimensions, not numerosity of dimensions. However, this was assuming Semyon was even being serious in the first place...

It Is Not Serious
We first must look at the character of Semyon and the context of the story. Here are all the major things he did in the story:


 * Introduces himself by teasing and playing with Dalia and her entourage
 * Bringing them deeper into the Dragon’s prison to show its non euclidean nature
 * Having Dalia process the last moments of the Dragon before imprisoned in Mars by the Emperor
 * Reveals the truth of the Mechanicum and why it must not be revealed
 * Transferring all his knowledge and wisdom to Dalia and then dying

I will not disagree or contest that he is a valuable source of information. If you read the pages succeeding his introduction you will see that is wholly true. What I will contest is the idea that we take every word he says is to be taken literally and at face value. More likely, Semyon was either doing the following:


 * 1) Teasing and mocking the characters in an eccentric and offbeat manner, likely to test them, or legitimately just to mess with them because he thinks they're foolish
 * 2) Actually trying to teach them and tell them something of value, but in a metaphorical and non-literalist manner

One problem that has come was the ignorance of the full context of Semyon's introduction which removes context that would make one come with the above conclusions. Here is the full unabridged quote:

"“And you would be right,” said a cracked voice, ancient and thick with age.

''Dalia spun to see Rho-mu 31 with his weapon stave aimed at a hooded adept in dark robes emerging from the passageway at the far end of the chamber.''

“Oh yes, you would be right,” continued the adept. “Happy day that you come to me! I had all but given up hope of anyone ever arriving!”

“Who are you?” demanded the Protector, igniting the tip of his weapon stave as a hulking servitor emerged from the shadows to stand beside the adept. The servitor was bulky with augmetics, one arm replaced with a hissing, wheezing power claw, the other with an oversized chainblade.

The adept drew back his hood and Dalia gasped as she saw his gaunt features, wild eyes and thin scraps of bone-white hair. His flesh shone with mercurial light, as though glittering fire filled his veins instead of blood, and upon his forehead she saw a shining electoo of a diminishing spiral with a stylised set of wings to either side.

The mark of the Dragon.

“I know you,” she said. “I dreamed of you.”

“The hooded man?” gasped Caxton. “He’s real?”

“Am I real?” asked the adept. “Well, as real as any of you, though what constitutes reality in this polluted cesspool of psi-spoor we call a universe… well, a matter for some debate, yes?”

“Who are you?” repeated Rho-mu 31, taking a step towards the man.

“Who am I? Now there’s a question. One might as well ask how many stars there are in the heavens, though that would have a definite answer. Or would it? Ah, it’s been so long since I have seen them. Are they still there or have the others devoured them?”

“The stars?” asked Dalia.

“Of course the stars,” snapped the adept. “Are they still there?”

“Yes, they’re still there.”

“How many?”

“I don’t know,” said Dalia. “Millions, I think.”

“Millions she says,” laughed the adept. “And not a second after she says she knows not.”

Rho-mu 31 stepped between Dalia and the cackling adept.

"I won’t ask again,” said Rho-mu 31. “Tell me your name.”

“My name,” said the adept, looking confused. “Ah, but it’s been so long since I needed one and it gets so hard to remember. I need no name, for my name is insignificant against the vast, echoing emptiness of the darkness, but men once called me Semyon.”

“And what are you doing here?” asked Dalia.

“Here?” cried Semyon, throwing his arms wide and spinning around like a lunatic. “You have such a limited understanding of the material world, girl. Words like here and there have no meaning. The myriad dimensions of this material universe cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language!”

Semyon stopped with his back to Dalia and looked over his shoulder, his face alight with the fire she had seen in Jonas Milus’ eyes before his body had disintegrated.

“I am the Guardian of the Dragon!” said Semyon."

- Mechancium

I think we can agree Semyon is a valuable source of information, but his reliability is not yet even established in this scene. Rather, what is established in this scene is that he is very obscure, snarky, and a smartass. It is shown that he is teasing and mocking the characters here (“Millions she says,” laughed the adept. “And not a second after she says she knows not.") And the only certain thing we know about him which from his own words is that his name is Semyon, which he still took a moment of rambling and conjecturing to finally utter out (“My name,” said the adept, looking confused. “Ah, but it’s been so long since I needed one and it gets so hard to remember. I need no name, for my name is insignificant against the vast, echoing emptiness of the darkness,-) and overall whatever Semyon says in this given scene should be taken with a grain of salt as he clearly isn't being serious or directly informative of any hidden truths. He is just screwing around because presumed millennia of isolation will do that.

And why should he be serious here? Look at what precipitated Semyon's response. Dalia asked a simple "why are you here" and Semyon sporadically took 90° turn to rant about the nature of the universe. What else could this be taken as except Semyon messing with Dalia by eccentrically deconstructing the usage of the word "here?" It's just completely unrelated to the subject of the discussion and has no reason to be stated but to be eccentric and say strange stuff. Like how can we just accept all the previous stuff he just said being obvious snark and teasing (because it was) but accept this one last thing to be totally serious and informative when there was no initial reason for it to be so, and if anything it was written to finalize the notion that he is eccentric and snarky?

On this topic of how serious he was, one last thing to notice throughout the preceding conversation, however is that the whole quote in the first place was clearly a bit of hypocritical and ironic humor as Semyon goes into an eccentric tirade directed at Dalia for using the words “here” and “there” when as we see in the quote, he did it himself several times. So the whole thing is just to show him being eccentric and a bit hypocritical. Remember this is before we even know he is a valuable source of information. We just know he says vague, contradictory, and metaphoric stuff, but nothing yet pertinent to greater didactic teaching of the nature of the 40k Verse and its history like he later would.

Even If He Is Serious, He Isn't Being Literal
Continuing, to give ground and assume, in some way, he was informing characters here. It still can be well argued to be a metaphorical and non-literalist series of statements from Semyon. We need to remember why Semyon is a valuable source of information; he is a guardian of the dragon who knows truths that no other adept or human or lifeform knows. Even if he is teaching he still relies on implications, metaphors, and inspirations, not didactic recitations of the universe’s nature. Here is one example where he berates Dalia for taking the events in the story literally:

"“I think so,” said Dalia. “This is Old Earth. Before Unification.”

Semyon nodded. “Long before Unification. The tribes of men are still divided and know nothing of the glories and perils beyond their world.”

“And what is that city over there?” asked Dalia.

“Still thinking in such literal terms, girl,” chuckled Semyon. “We are still in the cave of the Dragon. All this is a manipulation of your mind’s perception centres by the book to show you what needs to be shown. But in answer to your question, the city is called Cyrene and this is a representation of a land once known as Libya. It is an ancient land, though the people you see before you are far from the first to settle here. The Phoenicians came here first, men the Grekans, then the Romans, and finally the Arabii. Well, not finally, but that’s who rules now.”

“And when are we?”

“Ah, well, the text isn’t clear, though I believe this happened some time in either the eleventh or twelfth century.”

“So long ago.”

“A long time by anyone’s reckoning,” agreed Semyon. “Save perhaps his.”

“I don’t understand,” said Dalia. “Who are you talking about?”

“Never mind. You’ll understand soon enough.”

Dalia fought down her annoyance at Semyon’s cryptic answers and said, “So we’re not really here and this is just what’s in the book?”

“Now you begin to understand.”"

- Mechancium

"The image of the city and the desert were frozen in time, and Dalia turned to Semyon. “Is that all of it?”

“It’s all the Dragon remembers of it, yes,” said Semyon. “Or at least a version of its memories. It’s hard to tell what’s real and what’s not sometimes. I listen to its impotent roars of hatred as it watches from its gaol on Mars and write what comes out, the Emperor ‘slaying’ the Dragon of Mars… the grand lie of the red planet and the truth that would shake the galaxy if it were known. But truth, as are all things, is a moving target. What of this is real and what is fantasy… well, who can tell?”"

- Mechanicum

As we read about Semyon we see constantly that he is against taking things literally, that the universe is to be experienced and mystically interpreted, not blandly described in scientific terms. He didn’t tell Dalia anything until Dalia herself experienced or realized it and wasn’t explicit until Dalia already understood, why would he be explicit about one random quote he had in a rant?

So let's take the "myriad dimensions of this material universe cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language!” quote then. Why must we assume this here is talking about spatio-temporal dimensions? What would initiate him discussing geometric dimensional axes? Wouldn't it make more sense, should we say he is trying to sow a seed of truth here, that he was instead trying to say "The universe is too complex to blandly ask here and there and explain how I am here or there" rather than the absolutely unrelated literalist interpretation that he meant spatial dimensions?

These above are the most obvious and simple criticisms of this statement. Looking at the quote it was obvious Semyon wasn't being serious or literal here as he already showed to be snarky and teasing, he had no contextual reason to talk about spatio-temporal dimensions, and even if he was trying to be subtly informative it wouldn't be literal as it's not really in Semyon's character to be literal or spell something out until the character them-self discovers the deeper truth.

So in conclusion, Semyon while he was a reliable character now no greater reason or motive to say this and was just screwing around as with all the other things he said in his introduction, and if he was lacing his words with a deeper meaning they will be inherently metaphorical and non-literal, let alone so literal he means higher spatio-temporal dimensions when contextually that makes no sense. However.... I know this is not enough, I know that the notion that maybe he was being literal and serious, well, I will prove why the quote still doesn't mean transcedental higher spatial dimensions.

There's No Reason To Assume He Would Mean Spatial Dimensions
I will be liberal here, however, and assume that okay, yes, Semyon was being literal and he wasn’t just going on an eccentric and comedically hypocritical rant here. Let’s say he did mean physical dimensions of some sort had this x quality. Even with the assumption that it means physical dimensions, the assumption is that this quote means spatial dimension makes no sense given the context of the scene. Let me bring back why he starts the rant:

"“And what are you doing here?” asked Dalia."

To which Semyon responded:

"“Here?” cried Semyon, throwing his arms wide and spinning around like a lunatic.”"

Dalia was asking what Semyon was doing “here,” which first off obviously wasn’t with respect to a direction, but with general location, but what was this location? They were beneath the Noctis Labyrinthus in a place called the “Breath of the Dragon,” which may or may not be in or at least the threshold to another universal realm (The Void Dragon itself):

"They walked for what felt like an age, winding through serpentine passages and multicoloured galleries of translucent stalagmites, and across glittering bridges of smooth crystal. Dalia wondered what manner of internal geological transformation could alter so great a portion of the subterranean landscape.

“Geological metamorphosis I’d imagine,” said Zouche. “Aeons of pressure and heat can cause some rock types to change their state. Looks like that’s what’s happened here.”

No, realised Dalia, that’s not it at all. It’s something buried here that’s leaching outwards."

- Mechanicum